Search for Estates, Dr. Peterson suggests

[_Tchild]

How did Packer pay for his house?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

How did Packer make the payments on that house, now valued at over $1 million, if the church didn't pay him to be a GA? And if they paid him to be a GA, then he's been feeding at the tithing trough for almost 50 years, and lying about it.

Well, the answer is simple; the church paid some sort of payment to the then newly called apostle, Boyd K Packer. The timeline of the apostleship and the purchase of the home are one and the same per the autobiographical passages provided by Tom earlier:

the Packers decided to leave Lindon and relocate nearer Church headquarters. They hoped for a place where they could keep animals and birds and the children could continue to have the daily chores. Elder Packer also wanted to insulate them from the publicity of his position as a General Authority

It is proof positive that the LDS church has paid clergy. However, the cost of the house at the time (1964) may show how little or how modestly such LDS clergy are actually paid.

My father-in-law bought a place the same year in S. California, in Mission Viejo (an nicer suburban enclave of Orange county), for $40K. He showed me the original payment coupons that were in his book of remembrance. Salt Lake Properties at the time couldn't have been higher than the fast growing S. California market and were probably comparable or lesser given the demand of the differing areas. If we assume a 50K buy price in 1964 (BKP's estate was larger than that of my Father in law's MV home) and most mortgages being made on a 3 - 3.5 Mortgage to income ratio, then, we see Packer potentially making about 13-16K a year as an apostle. Depending of course on the price of his home in 1964 which may have been less than 50K or more.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

My father-in-law bought a place the same year in S. California, in Mission Viejo (an nicer suburban enclave of Orange county), for $40K. He showed me the original payment coupons that were in his book of remembrance. Salt Lake Properties at the time couldn't have been higher than the fast growing S. California market and were probably comparable or lesser given the demand of the differing areas. If we assume a 50K buy price in 1964 (BKP's estate was larger than that of my Father in law's MV home) and most mortgages being made on a 3 - 3.5 Mortgage to income ratio, then, we see Packer potentially making about 13-16K a year as an apostle. Depending of course on the price of his home in 1964 which may have been less than 50K or more.

Hello Sir,

Can we not safely assume that our national currency devalues at a real-value rate of about 40% per decade? If that is the case then the 2010 value of a home purchased in 1964 for $50,000 could more or less be valued at $270,000 in today's terms, excluding real estate market factors.

Sir, this is still quite a pricey home for a "humble servant of the Lord". How did that particular man afford, in essence, a $270,000 mortgage? How did he qualify for the loan? These are interesting questions as it pertains to the Mormon church's claim of having an unpaid clergy.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_Danna]

If they get paid according to 'need', and he contracted a huge 'need' on taking up the job, something is up. The church stipend will include sufficient to have church money purchase a lovely big nest egg at the expense of the church. no wonder his seniors came out to view the house. Tacit approval to run up a big obligation for the tithe-payer. The sense of the story coming through is that 'this is why I spent so much of your money on an estate' or 'large property'.

[_Paul Osborne]

There is no way that Packer's home sold for a whopping $50 grand in 1964. That is way too much money. No, I'm not a realtor, just a realist. Look, I figure the house may have been purchased for about 20,000-30,000 tops.

The story about getting the house makes it clear that it really was somewhat out of reach of what he could naturally afford. But that's OK, if you're going to be a GA you deserve extra benefits for being in the club. Packer was about to learn that happy lesson from his priesthood boss who so lovingly ecouraged him to overextend.

Priestcraft! Priesthcraft! Open the books!

Paul O

[_Tchild]

Hello Sir,

Can we not safely assume that our national currency devalues at a real-value rate of about 40% per decade? If that is the case then the 2010 value of a home purchased in 1964 for $50,000 could more or less be valued at $270,000 in today's terms, excluding real estate market factors.

Sir, this is still quite a pricey home for a "humble servant of the Lord". How did that particular man afford, in essence, a $270,000 mortgage? How did he qualify for the loan? These are interesting questions as it pertains to the Mormon church's claim of having an unpaid clergy.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Good points Doc. Paul O estimates the house had a 20K - 30K selling price in 1964. He might be much closer than my 50K guess, which would lower your and my estimates by almost half. Ultimately though, it is better to compare the house as it was bought and not as it is valued in today's marketplace. Solid middle class incomes have probably risen 8-10 fold since 1964. a 10K-15K annual salary in 64' is probably the near equivelant of 75K-120K today. A home bought for 20-30K puts BKP in the lower ranks of middle class income levels, just about what the church pays its employees today.

The church does have a paid clergy, but the method of the payments are obfuscated in accountant-speak. "Stipend", "reimbursement", "Benefit" etc.

I know a general authority (and his family) whose sole income has been the church, and who has been in the service of the church for over three decades now. His income has been derived soley from the church as a paid minister. He lived very modestly and worked very hard, but was able to own a home in Orem, UT and raise a family of six kids.

I am not disagreeing with anyone that the leaders are "paid" whether it be by stipend or W-2 paycheck wages. I just don't think it is much compensation, especially given the extensive time and travel commitments they make to the church.

[_Tchild]

I was reading the sister thread over on the MA&D board and a comment by Dr. Peterson got me thinking.

It is possible that the top leaders are in fact unpaid any form of salary and that they are merely reimbursed expenses and offered a basic stipend expense as they travel. It may be that certain persons who began in the church educuational system (CES), retain employment and certain responsabilities pertaining to specific duties and needs of the CES while carrying out their dual role as a general authority -- such as the BKP and the general authority that I know from my youth.

They are paid, but it is from the CES, and such persons perform duties related to the CES while they act in the capacity of general authority.

The church has its doctrinal and foundational problems, but for me, how it reimburses its clergy and how it manages its money, are not one of those problems.

[_harmony]

I was reading the sister thread over on the MA&D board and a comment by Dr. Peterson got me thinking.

It is possible that the top leaders are in fact unpaid any form of salary and that they are merely reimbursed expenses and offered a basic stipend expense as they travel. It may be that certain persons who began in the church educuational system (CES), retain employment and certain responsabilities pertaining to specific duties and needs of the CES while carrying out their dual role as a general authority -- such as the BKP and the general authority that I know from my youth.

Higher and deeper. That's just plain bull crap. BKP's been an apostle since 1961, not an employee of CES.

They are paid, but it is from the CES, and such persons perform duties related to the CES while they act in the capacity of general authority.

The church has its doctrinal and foundational problems, but for me, how it reimburses its clergy and how it manages its money, are not one of those problems.

My problem is two fold:

1. we scream to the world that our clergy are not paid. We lie.

2. we do not know how much our clergy are paid, because the books are closed. So essentially, we hide behind the original lie.

Maybe you aren't a tithe payer. I am. I hate the lies and I hate the secrecy that protects the lies.

[_zzyzx]

Can someone who lives in Salt Lake County(or where Boyds home is) and someone who lives in Utah County(where his 64 home sold) check with the County Recorder and County Assessor and see what the actual sales prices were at the time of sale and purchase?
That will put solid figures on the values we are guessing at.

[_Paul Osborne]

The dirt is there if only people will dig. The church leaders have been doing this for a long time and surely they have made some sloppy mistakes that can be exposed once uncovered. It's only a matter of time before LDS priestcraft is exposed. If only one of the 12 would defect! Unfortunately it would cost a lot money to buy him.

Brigham Young loved a big house filled with naked ladies and plenty of wine, no doubt. I can only imagine the orgies that took place. Wow!

Paul O

[_Tchild]

The dirt is there if only people will dig. The church leaders have been doing this for a long time and surely they have made some sloppy mistakes that can be exposed once uncovered. It's only a matter of time before LDS priestcraft is exposed. If only one of the 12 would defect! Unfortunately it would cost a lot money to buy him.

Brigham Young loved a big house filled with naked ladies and plenty of wine, no doubt. I can only imagine the orgies that took place. Wow!

Paul O

Well, I am not sure what "priestcraft" really means, or if it is some sort of prosecutable offense, but seriously, is BKP not entitled to live a fairly decent and secure life? It isn't like he has been jet-setting the world, or sleeping with hot babes, or buying lavish toys. He is just a guy who believes in his religion and by his devotion has risen through the ranks to be one of its leaders.

My father in law just got tapped to serve his third LDS senior mission in four years. He has never been paid, and he answers the call without reservation every time. Believers have motives that transcend money sometimes. I have to think that for the requirements that the church asks of its apostles, it has to be belief first and security second, but that is just my opinion.

Tyler