Mormon belief turning point

[_rich kelsey]

Hi sock puppet.

Your story sure is believable. It sounds like so many other stories of people looking deeper into LDS history, etc., for whatever reason and finding that,

“…it did not--and it still does not--add up.”

I believe the old adage about a house of cards sure fits with Mormonism. There really is no sold foundation, or structure.

About a month ago I was talking to two Elders. They had nine months left on their mission and we had a friendly conversation. I asked a few questions, such as “have you read the Interview with Martin Harris from Joel Tiffany in Tiffany's Monthly 1859?

This is the interview where Martin speaks of Smith using a stone to search for buried treasure. They I went from there to the 1826 Glass Looking Trial, which is the court proceeding covering the same.

They were completely unaware of that history.

What they offered me was the prospect that archeological digs now underway were about to prove that the Book of Mormon true. It seems that Moroni traveled to New York and deposited the record of a people who fought and died in Central America.

So the idea of a huge battle taking place on and around Mount Cumorah is had by people who was a thinking badly. (Like me)

Well, these young men are still waiting for the proof to come in. You and I may wonder how long it may take them until they have an eye-opening experience similar to yours and realize “it still does not--add up.”

Thanks for sharing; I look forward to reading you often. I like your user name.

[_sock puppet]

I do not enter into this effort for any other reason than somehow I like you for at least allowing me to amuse you these past few months. I too am anti-Mormon. For all the wrong reasons. I am anti-Mormon because I love the Restoration and know that the true gospel was realized anew for our times by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

I too am 5th generation BIC. But I never matured in my LDS faith before I was given the REAL gospel, the one that Jesus Christ refreshed the world with through Joseph Smith's experience and revelations. Because I was born again of fire and of the Holy Ghost at the age of 18 in 1970 there has never been a moment of second thought. Not even after ALL the LDS people I loved turned against me and sought every occasion to quash every fond expectation of fellowship, respect or even a fair consideration.

The LDS have completely trashed the REAL gospel. And it does not matter a fig if Joseph Smith was trash or NOT. I believe he is getting a bum deal from historians who place NO value on the one thing Joseph Smith got exceedingly correct. The one thing that ALL his revelations establish and enhance. The one thing that matters. And that sure as hell ain't polygamy. This accomplishment is so extraordinary that it Trump's all other considerations of the Prophet's worth.

There is no possibility that this core value of Joseph Smith was weighed in the balance of your decision. Yeah, the LDS Church was hypocrite and I think any soul of anti-hypocrisy by nature would want out. But the way out is not taking down Joseph Smith. Blame is upon the wickedness in high places that do not sustain the core value of the Restoration and in fact set up every possible hindrance to block up the way and see to it that nobody gets close. These are tares that are choking every decent and honorable LDS person to spiritual doom.

The core value of the Restoration is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. You know already that this is the number one consideration of the Book of Mormon's spiritual message. It is also the most important consideration in the establishment of Zion and therefore, with that clarity, it is also the number one consideration of the entire Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Moses treats it with the baptism of Adam. The JST is therefore serving the interest of this one primary core value of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. IT IS the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does a Con Man discover correctly that core value and lace it into his deceptions? NOBODY in the early 1800s had the slightest clue about how to come unto Christ and the flat out meekness, where one BELIEVES that they merit NOTHING of God as they come unto him with full purpose of heart willing to suffer all, and die to all, to have some hope, by faith, in prayers and pleadings with a broken heart and contrite spirit, submitting to God this way acceptably. The pride of the world had for centuries remained so high minded assuming God's favors above this sort of meekness that the accomplishment of the gospel was/is impossible.

You must be born again to see this. Joseph saw it and taught it and revealed it better than any man before his time. That is a lot to boast of.

It it took a treasure hunter for God to get this back into the world, so what?
If it took a kid who liked to drink, I do not care.
I am one who does know his heart, for Got put the same heart in me. And everyone around him is much more suspect of foul play than he. I know that is how people react to true saints. They simply cannot help it.

Do I think he took advantage of little girls? NO. That is stupid.
He was virtuous all his days. He sealed lots of people to him for reasons we do not know and might have got carried away with the possibilities before he comprehended better what the ultimate doctrine was all about. He was only eighteen years into the Church before he was gone. That is no time at all. He was a work in progress and would have corrected all the sealing people to people nonsense if he had the time to come to the next conclusion about exaltation and the continuation of the seeds.

It was the very next step in the economy of God that exceeded his grasp. He would have caught it in time. But the people had rejected the core value of the Restoration already. It did not happen. So Satan got a huge advantage to steer the lost Gentile Mormon experience his way, serving himself proud.

Imagine the different world we would be living in IF the Gentiles had taken from Joseph Smith the core value of the Restoration to heart and become a real and true Zion with the power of God resting upon them day and night.
This was BEFORE the lying wonders of Satan, (the electro-mechanical age) had been much invented. Zion would have turned the entire world in a different direction. Satan would have been bound before all the filth of our modern world polluted the earth. Christ would have cut short his return for the righteousness of it all.

The woes of the Last Days lay at the feet of the Gentiles who sinned against the Gospel. That very truth the Prophet Joseph Smith restored by his own faith in calling it down upon himself. Praise to that man.

You know, Nightlion, that I am an apatheist (but my apathy/atheism does not extend to this interesting cultural phenomenon into which I was born, the LDS Church). You also know, Nightlion, that I have a great deal of respect for you. Your post here illustrates exactly why I respect you. You are, as I've said before, the truest, most genuine Mormon that posts here. (Of course, you know the distinction between the broader term Mormon and the more narrow member of the LDS Church.)

I am yet fond of the style, strategy, tactics and eloquence of a speech given by Hugh B Brown. You no doubt know it, it is titled 'Profile of a Prophet'. To appreciate this great oratory skill displayed by Brown in this speech, listening to the audio (here are part 1 and part 2) is essential (reading the transcript will not do).

Now, if a truly openminded TBM or defender will apply Hugh B Brown's tests for a prophet that Brown used to argue for JSJr's claim of being a prophet, it will become clear that you, Nightlion, fit the bill of a prophet (if there is any such thing). It will become painfully clear to the openminded TBM or defender that TSM, his counselors and the 12 of today fail that test miserably.

[_Nightlion]

Now, if a truly openminded TBM or defender will apply Hugh B Brown's tests for a prophet that Brown used to argue for JSJr's claim of being a prophet, it will become clear that you, Nightlion, fit the bill of a prophet (if there is any such thing). It will become painfully clear to the openminded TBM or defender that TSM, his counselors and the 12 of today fail that test miserably.

Granted. As I said, I am an anti-Mormon. And I mean mostly an Anti-false-prophet-tramplers-upon the Holy One of Israel-Mormon. But what about MY point?

[_sock puppet]

Now, if a truly openminded TBM or defender will apply Hugh B Brown's tests for a prophet that Brown used to argue for JSJr's claim of being a prophet, it will become clear that you, Nightlion, fit the bill of a prophet (if there is any such thing). It will become painfully clear to the openminded TBM or defender that TSM, his counselors and the 12 of today fail that test miserably.

Granted. As I said, I am an anti-Mormon. And I mean mostly an Anti-false-prophet-tramplers-upon the Holy One of Israel-Mormon. But what about MY point?

Okay, YOUR point. Can't quite meet you at that spot on the battlefield, Nightlion. Our thougts on the matter are simply too divergent. But please know, and understand, I view you as a true believer in the mysticism of the pre-charismatic movement phenomena that was Joseph Smith Jr and early Mormonism (as compared to a member of the institutional, sanitized remains, 150+ years on). I do not expect you to have the same respect for me that I do for you. It truly would be too much to ask of a genuine believer, and I do not ask it of you. It would diminish you, and thus my respect for you, if you did. In this respect, let me simply be your unrequited admirer.

[_Nightlion]

But what about MY point?

Okay, YOUR point. Can't quite meet you at that spot on the battlefield, Nightlion. Our thoughts on the matter are simply too divergent. But please know, and understand, I view you as a true believer in the mysticism of the pre-charismatic movement phenomena that was Joseph Smith Jr and early Mormonism (as compared to a member of the institutional, sanitized remains, 150+ years on). I do not expect you to have the same respect for me that I do for you. It truly would be too much to ask of a genuine believer, and I do not ask it of you. It would diminish you, and thus my respect for you, if you did. In this respect, let me simply be your unrequited admirer.

You dared admit seeing me in the ice first. Thanks, it meant a lot. The more I can believe people will hear what I say the better I seem to say it.

[Guest]

Hello Mr. Sock Puppet,

Perhaps your biggest fault was to actually believe what you were taught? People like Mr. Simon don't do what they're told to do. They're actually apostates when it comes to Mormonism, but for whatever reason they stick around.

I attended Seminary perfectly by my own volition.
I read the Book of Mormon no less than 12 times by my own volition.
I read 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses by my own volition.
I served a mission to a shithole by my own volition.
I married in the temple by my own volition.

Yet, I never really understood Mormonism?

Well, what the “F” is Mormonism if I didn't understand it after years of attending services, serving it, and reading about it??

These Internet Mopologists are assholes. They don't understand themselves much less the religion which they espouse. I don't understand their psychological need to defend something they themselves were and are unwilling to live, but it is what it is.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Nightlion]

Hello Mr. Sock Puppet,

Perhaps your biggest fault was to actually believe what you were taught? People like Mr. Simon don't do what they're told to do. They're actually apostates when it comes to Mormonism, but for whatever reason they stick around.

I attended Seminary perfectly by my own volition.
I read the Book of Mormon no less than 12 times by my own volition.
I read 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses by my own volition.
I served a mission to a shithole by my own volition.
I married in the temple by my own volition.

Yet, I never really understood Mormonism?

Well, the, what the f*** is Mormonism if I didn't understand it after years of attending services, serving it, and reading about it??

These Internet Mopologists are assholes. They don't understand themselves much less the religion which they espouse. I don't understand their psychological need to defend something they themselves were and are unwilling to live, but it is what it is.

V/R
Dr. Cam

I do not see Simon on this thread. So who you talking about, me? I notice that you almost ALWAYS show up early in the morning when I log on. Why is that? You got a bell that goes off?

Are you like bcspace who deletes my name from quotes and cannot quite bear my reality? And yeah, you do not know crap about what you should know. If you want to go for who is the apostate let's have at it. You are like an inflated sand-bottom clown. Since you do not believe what does it matter anymore?

I am not the apostate.
But I have to play one so Mormons can sleep at night.

I defend what I live. Mormons live what they cannot and will not defend. Not against me anyways.

[_sock puppet]

I am not the apostate.
But I have to play one so Mormons can sleep at night.

That, Nightlion, is perhaps your most profound, prophetic statement to date.

[_Nightlion]

I am not the apostate.
But I have to play one so Mormons can sleep at night.

That, Nightlion, is perhaps your most profound, prophetic statement to date.

LOLWD. What's better than a sig?