Buffalo wrote:We know that Joseph didn't need them. Anything else you can come up with is ad hoc.
Well of course, that's the point. There are tons of possibilities as to why it was necessary to preserve them. That's all I'm saying. I don't' know that I can even guess at some close reason why they were needed, but it doesn't matter. There's no reason to assume someone is angry about having to preserve them because we don't know that there is not a reason to preserve them.
I realize you think the "we don't know" is a defense, but its not. Its just saying the criticism is logically faulty, and moot, frankly.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:We know that Joseph didn't need them. Anything else you can come up with is ad hoc.
Well of course, that's the point. There are tons of possibilities as to why it was necessary to preserve them. That's all I'm saying. I don't' know that I can even guess at some close reason why they were needed, but it doesn't matter. There's no reason to assume someone is angry about having to preserve them because we don't know that there is not a reason to preserve them.
I realize you think the "we don't know" is a defense, but its not. Its just saying the criticism is logically faulty, and moot, frankly.
If "we don't know" isn't a defense, then the criticism has not been shown to be faulty or moot, Stem.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:They go through all that effort, painstakingly etching a thousand years of history on metal plates, after spending I'm sure thousands of hours researching old records and determining the best parts to summarize. Then Moroni trudges thousands of miles with these heavy gold plates to New York, and buries them in the ground for Joseph Smith to find.
Then, after the plates have been buried for 1500 years, Joseph digs them up, and promptly ignores them. He does the translation by sticking his head in a hat.
Sorry, Mormon and Moroni. All that work was for nothing. All he needed was a hat and a rock.
I'd be pretty pissed off, if I were Moroni. Maybe that's why they have all those statues of him on top of temples - trying to get back in his good graces.
Actually they were not pissed. They knew that to put all the information onto metal plates was not possible for the size needed for Joseph to carry them around. They also knew that Joseph would not be able to read them, so they just made up a prop to act as a catalyst just like with the papyri which also does not contain any story about Abraham.
stemelbow wrote:Well of course, that's the point. There are tons of possibilities as to why it was necessary to preserve them. That's all I'm saying. I don't' know that I can even guess at some close reason why they were needed, but it doesn't matter. There's no reason to assume someone is angry about having to preserve them because we don't know that there is not a reason to preserve them.
I realize you think the "we don't know" is a defense, but its not. Its just saying the criticism is logically faulty, and moot, frankly.
I think buffalo was doing it for a little fun, even though there are some valid criticism he was putting forth. He is also right that you do seem like the "we don't know" answer, or bring up possibilities which are usually the least likely. I am not sure this is a logical way to approach issues to try and figure out what probably happened, unless your goal is to find ways to remain believing.
by the way Joseph did not read the plates. There is a lot of evidence which backs this up for the Book of Mormon we have. The plates remained covered and usually hidden many times outside. It's not like Joseph could actually read them. He would need God's help, and there is plenty of evidence showing he used the seer stone in his hat.
stemelbow wrote:Well of course, that's the point. There are tons of possibilities as to why it was necessary to preserve them. That's all I'm saying. I don't' know that I can even guess at some close reason why they were needed, but it doesn't matter. There's no reason to assume someone is angry about having to preserve them because we don't know that there is not a reason to preserve them.
I realize you think the "we don't know" is a defense, but its not. Its just saying the criticism is logically faulty, and moot, frankly.
I think buffalo was doing it for a little fun, even though there are some valid criticism he was putting forth. He is also right that you do seem like the "we don't know" answer, or bring up possibilities which are usually the least likely. I am not sure this is a logical way to approach issues to try and figure out what probably happened, unless your goal is to find ways to remain believing.
by the way Joseph did not read the plates. There is a lot of evidence which backs this up for the Book of Mormon we have. The plates remained covered and usually hidden many times outside. It's not like Joseph could actually read them. He would need God's help, and there is plenty of evidence showing he used the seer stone in his hat.
so joseph wouldn't take the chance of speaking this 'dialect of egyptian' just in case an egypitan ever came around.
Buffalo wrote:We know that Joseph didn't need them. Anything else you can come up with is ad hoc.
Well of course, that's the point. There are tons of possibilities as to why it was necessary to preserve them. That's all I'm saying. I don't' know that I can even guess at some close reason why they were needed, but it doesn't matter. There's no reason to assume someone is angry about having to preserve them because we don't know that there is not a reason to preserve them.
I realize you think the "we don't know" is a defense, but its not. Its just saying the criticism is logically faulty, and moot, frankly.
So let me get this straight.
You actually believe that an angel was dispatched from Kolob to provide Joseph Smith with plates said to contain the carefully made, and only existing, summary of approximately three thousand years of new world history, only to have Joseph Smith "translate" the content of these plates by staring at a rock in a hat while the plates were nowhere in sight.
Then you claim that any criticism of this narrative is logically faulty and moot.
Seriously?
Perhaps you could point out to me any part of this narrative that actually makes any sense whatsoever.
I think if you could, you would, and would not hide behind "we don't know".
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Years ago, towards the last month that I could barely stand being being in the chapel corral surrounded by faith-promoting-rumor eating sheeple, the gospel doctrine instructor(who, looking back now, was a developing internet Mormon) told the class that Moroni did bury the plates in central America and that God simple MOVED them to upstate New York, just down the dusty road from Joe's farmhouse.
He reasoned that moving gold plates that only weighed 150 lbs was insignificant compared to the other things that he had done with the physical world.
Most of the class was either sleeping or on their smart phones. A few muffled "uh-huh"s came out.
New name: Boaz The most viewed "ignored" poster in Shady Acres® !
So there was a redundant fail safe mechanism built into the data storage and retrieval business, big deal. Next you will be telling us that those marvelous terra cotta figures where unnecessary in honoring the life and death of the Chinese Emperor. There figures burial and subsequent discovery enriched us all. Just be thankful it was not necessary to take them up to Heaven after the first archaeological team spread word of the terra cotta army.