stemelbow wrote: It seems he truly believed he was going to be killed for his beliefs. I'm not sure polygamy alone was the cause of persecuations against him--as it was we know of recorded events of persecution before any of his dealings with polygamy.
Do tell.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
jon wrote:Here is a list of 'Common features of stereotypical martyrdoms' 1. A hero - A person of some renown who is devoted to a cause believed to be admirable. 2. Opposition - People who oppose that cause. 3. Foreseeable risk - The hero foresees action by opponents to harm him or her, because of his or her commitment to the cause. 4. Courage and Commitment - The hero continues, despite knowing the risk, out of commitment to the cause. 5. Death - The opponents kill the hero because of his or her commitment to the cause. 6. Audience response - The hero’s death is commemorated. People may label the hero explicitly as a martyr. Other people may in turn be inspired to pursue the same cause.
Does this list fit the death of Joseph Smith and the reasons for it?
Except for part of number six, these can fit anyone who serves a nation and then dies in combat.
Were the German and Japanese soldiers who died in World War II martyrs, since they were killed by those who opposed them?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Were the German and Japanese soldiers who died in World War II martyrs, since they were killed by those who opposed them?
Nice try. No I don't think that a martyr is merely someone who is killed by those who oppose him/her. I was not very clear earlier and I've tried to rectify that there misunderstanding.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
stemelbow wrote:No I don't think that a martyr is merely someone who is killed by those who oppose him/her. I was not very clear earlier and I've tried to rectify that there misunderstanding.
What was your rectification? I must've missed it.
So, why was Joseph Smith a martyr but German and Japanese soldiers weren't? What was the difference?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Dr. Shades wrote:What was your rectification? I must've missed it.
So, why was Joseph Smith a martyr but German and Japanese soldiers weren't? What was the difference?
I'll plain step aside. I don't care if people think Joseph Smith is a martyr or not. Here's the position I hold: Joseph Smith held certain religious beliefs that people didn't' like. For holding to those beliefs he was mocked, harassed, and physically attacked on varied occassions. It continues to be my assumption that those who attacked and killed Joseph Smith were doing so because they were opposed to him, his stated cause, his convictions. Sure he shot back. I don't personally think that disqualifies him. I guess it disqualifies him in some people's minds. I don't see why. But oh well.
I have no objection to anyone thinking German and Japanese soldiers who died in battle were martyrs to their causes, anyway.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
As in the above posts, it depends on ones point of view.
Uncomfortably looking at this from an LDS point of view, I think his death could be called "faith promoting". The story can (and has) been woven to show that Joseph Smith's death was a result of his being a true prophet. An almost Christlike sacrifice to the word of God.
History paints it a little differently. From an LDS point of view, he died for his convictions, a martyr. From a "Gentile" point of view, he died for his sins.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
stemelbow wrote: It seems he truly believed he was going to be killed for his beliefs. I'm not sure polygamy alone was the cause of persecuations against him--as it was we know of recorded events of persecution before any of his dealings with polygamy.
Do tell.
Stem?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Sorry, I wasn't being exhaustive in my description above. I didn't mean to confuse.
<....>
I just think its silly to think Joseph Smith is not a martyr. It has nothing to do with the differences people may apply to the word.
Stemelbow is a nice guy, but sometimes a dialog with him is like wrestling with a blancmange.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Here is how this subject is currently taught to Primary Children: • What is a martyr? (Someone who chooses to die rather than deny or reject what they believe in.) Why are Joseph and Hyrum Smith considered martyrs? (They chose to die rather than deny their testimonies of Jesus Christ and his gospel.)
Does the historic record show that Joseph and Hyrum chose to die rather than reject their beliefs?
Was Joseph in jail because he refused to deny his beliefs or because he broke the law when trying to cover up his beliefs?
Or does it show that Joseph and Hyrum died in a two way gun fight when the jail they were in was attacked by an armed mob?
Would Joseph drinking wine in the jail and not wearing his garments be consistent with someone hiding/denying aspects of their faith?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)
Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.