Effects of the economy

[_harmony]

With conference coming up soon, I'm wondering how many talks will feature the admonition to pay more tithing. Money is tight now, perhaps tighter than it's ever been for these generations. Tithing is voluntary, as far as lending institutions, the government, and bankruptcy courts are concerned. When push comes to shove, people are losing their homes; paying tithing is the least of their worries. Yet our leaders continue to beat the drum, harder and harder with every drop in tithes paid, rather than tighten their own budgets, like everyone else has to.

My workplace is also an agency that depends on voluntary contributions. My agency laid off 150 people in 2009. We laid off another 22 last month and made the decision to not fund another 18 positions. National is expected to lay off more than a thousand in November, with the rollout of our reorganization. We had a list as long as my arm of budget cuts made and policies changed to save money, in addition to the staff layoffs.

I've yet to see anything other than hammering on the members about paying full tithes from our leaders in conference. There is no report about what the church has done to tighten their budget, and there likely will not be.

Assuming the best of intentions on the part of the men who make the financial decisions, there is no reason to assume that cost overruns on City Creek of the magnitude reported would not be absorbed by the church's most reliable source of funds: the tithes. Which just compounds the problem.

I've posted this on Liz's board, where some of our more TBM posters have landed, and received pretty much the standard comments. What say ye? Will the church open up enough to show the cuts they've had to make to cope with this crisis? Or will they simply put the hammer down harder in an effort to maintain and increase the flow of tithes?

Would the church ever put the members first? Understand the members' situations? Loosen the Law of Tithing in favor of a Law of Compassion? Go without rather than beggar the members further?

[_jon]

I think tithing will always be on the agenda for Conference talks, it's become a mantra.

The Church has not been immune to the worldwide downturn.
We know that its investments and properties have declined in value.
We know that tithing income has declined alongside an increase in registered membership.
(based on published financial accounts in the UK)
The Church has expanded it's operation into places such as Africa - places where expenditure will outpace income, further stretching the widow's mite.
Temples are being built in places where they are not self sustainable - the one in Rome will operate part time, be cost negative and require funding from out of the constantly dwindling Presiding Bishopric coffers.
We know the Church continues in its religious folly of building a shopping mall, hotels, land purchases.

There are less and less costs for the Church to cut.
Janitors, gone.
Mormon Times, gone.
Deseret News, chopped in half.

More and more funding for activities etc is having to come from the already fiscally abused members themselves. Tithing, Fast Offering, Building Fund, Missionary Fund, Book of Mormon Fund, EFY, Camps, and they are now required to be free of charge cleaners.

No, talks about tithing will not be disappearing anytime soon...

[_Jason Bourne]

With conference coming up soon, I'm wondering how many talks will feature the admonition to pay more tithing. Money is tight now, perhaps tighter than it's ever been for these generations. Tithing is voluntary, as far as lending institutions, the government, and bankruptcy courts are concerned. When push comes to shove, people are losing their homes; paying tithing is the least of their worries. Yet our leaders continue to beat the drum, harder and harder with every drop in tithes paid, rather than tighten their own budgets, like everyone else has to.

Are you certain the Church has not tightened its budget? I know we have no way to know for sure but I see cuts in custodial and maintenance (and asking members to clean more) as well as a hiring freeze that the Church announced some time ago. Also, I the Church is pushing to reduce energy costs and consolidate use of buildings more so the AC, heat and lights are on more. Small measures perhaps but I see some indication of the Church tightening its budget.

My workplace is also an agency that depends on voluntary contributions. My agency laid off 150 people in 2009. We laid off another 22 last month and made the decision to not fund another 18 positions. National is expected to lay off more than a thousand in November, with the rollout of our reorganization. We had a list as long as my arm of budget cuts made and policies changed to save money, in addition to the staff layoffs.

Based on the mail I get from organizations like yours they are also increasing the fund raising budget and mail campaign. I give to a lot of such organizations but man once you do they all inundate you with beg a letters. And a new thing is they send you some sort of "gift" like a bag or calendar (two things I got recently one from the American Heart Association and one from a local Cancer Center) and then ask if you would give them some $$.

I've yet to see anything other than hammering on the members about paying full tithes from our leaders in conference. There is no report about what the church has done to tighten their budget, and there likely will not be.

You need to be on the High Council or something then you would hear.... oh wait..never mind.

Assuming the best of intentions on the part of the men who make the financial decisions, there is no reason to assume that cost overruns on City Creek of the magnitude reported would not be absorbed by the church's most reliable source of funds: the tithes. Which just compounds the problem.

Yes I am glad you brought that up because I was thinking the same thing. Wish we had a way to tell.

I've posted this on Liz's board, where some of our more TBM posters have landed, and received pretty much the standard comments. What say ye? Will the church open up enough to show the cuts they've had to make to cope with this crisis? Or will they simply put the hammer down harder in an effort to maintain and increase the flow of tithes?

No they will not open up.

Would the church ever put the members first? Understand the members' situations? Loosen the Law of Tithing in favor of a Law of Compassion? Go without rather than beggar the members further?

Tithing is considered a command that is a privilege to participate in, a command with a promised blessing, to no to your question above.

[_harmony]

Based on the mail I get from organizations like yours they are also increasing the fund raising budget and mail campaign. I give to a lot of such organizations but man once you do they all inundate you with beg a letters. And a new thing is they send you some sort of "gift" like a bag or calendar (two things I got recently one from the American Heart Association and one from a local Cancer Center) and then ask if you would give them some $$.

An ask is somewhat different from a command. And no, as far as I know, National hasn't ratcheted up the fundraising budget and mail campaign. The bulk of the fundraising is done locally, anyway, not through the mail.

You need to be on the High Council or something then you would hear.... oh wait..never mind.

Yeah, that's why I like you so much: your twisted sense of humor. LOL

Yes I am glad you brought that *City Creek budget overruns* up because I was thinking the same thing. Wish we had a way to tell.

Fiscal malfeasance is a sneaky thing, especially when the fox is in charge of the hen house. Until the books are open, the Brethren all have to carry that smell with them. The assumption of honesty disappears under the weight of nondisclosure.

No they will not open up.

Demonstrating an even wider gap between the Brethren and the members. How has the economy effected the Brethren? Is Packer's estate worth only 3/4 of a million now?

Tithing is considered a command that is a privilege to participate in, a command with a promised blessing, to no to your question above.

Privileges are for the privileged. Does the average unemployed foreclosed upon food bank visitor living on an unemployment check and food stamps rank that high? It's pretty sad when the only blessings the church offers are the ones that have to be bought at the local ward building.

[_DarkHelmet]

The church has to be feeling the crunch, but wasn't it estimated they bring in $6 billion in untaxed tithing annually? They must have a pile of cash in the bank, but they also have been spending a lot so who knows where they stand financially. I'm sure the lord is guiding all financial decisions and only he knows. A couple small things I've observed is an increase in the tablets and smart phones in meetings. The church has free scriptures and manuals for these devices. I'm not sure if they have s revenue model for these free apps, but it has to eventually hurt their scripture sales. I also recently heard a twentysomething member complain about the cost of garments. He made the comment that they were no cheaper than regular underwear so what was the point. That struck me as odd that he would not understand why he was wearing garments and thought it was simply a cost cutting measure. But when you consider that most of his friends that are his age are not active, it doesn't look good for the new generation if young people in the church. The doctrine has been watered down to the point that the ones who are active don't even understand why they wear garments so why will they keep paying tithing when times get tough?

[_jon]

The church has to be feeling the crunch, but wasn't it estimated they bring in $6 billion in untaxed tithing annually?

If you extrapolate the published numbers in the UK then tithing works out at circa £166 per 'registered' member annually. Assuming that to be a reasonable average (which allows for countries both richer and poorer than the UK) the worldwide tithing would be circa £2.5 billion per annum.
Note: that is purely tithing income, and doesn't include money from investments and other donations etc.