does it read like metal plates?

[_stemelbow]

Heya DJ, additionally, considering more of the possibilities, there have been some efforts by people (of course LDS people, whom you probably won't trust) who tried to determine how many plates would be needed to contain the writings in the Book of Mormon. some say the writings could fit on a few plates, like 20 or 30, in Hebrew. But we also know Reformed Egyptian was used to make it even more concise.

So while I was going with the possibility of no effort to consider the Book of Mormon at all, there is also the possibility that the plates contained enough to translate and it just so happened that the repetitiveness that occurs in English was just how they wrote.

[url="http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=236"]The Book of Mormon Plates[/url]

[url="http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=237"]Epigraphic Consideration[/url]

[_DarkHelmet]

"Transcription" causes more problems than it solves, since you are now saying that God translated the record and any errors, anachronisms, or other problems with the text of the Book of Mormon are God's fault.

Of course. The black priesthood ban was god's fault. Polygamy was god's fault. Why wouldn't the Book of Mormon error and anachronisms be god's fault too? Joseph Smith was only writing what god told him to write.

[_Darth J]

Heya DJ, additionally, considering more of the possibilities, there have been some efforts by people (of course LDS people, whom you probably won't trust) who tried to determine how many plates would be needed to contain the writings in the Book of Mormon. some say the writings could fit on a few plates, like 20 or 30, in Hebrew. But we also know Reformed Egyptian was used to make it even more concise.

So while I was going with the possibility of no effort to consider the Book of Mormon at all, there is also the possibility that the plates contained enough to translate and it just so happened that the repetitiveness that occurs in English was just how they wrote.

[url="http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=236"]The Book of Mormon Plates[/url]

[url="http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display/pdf.php?table=jbms&id=237"]Epigraphic Consideration[/url]

Thank you for resolving any remaining doubts as to whether you have failed to understand the issue raised in the OP.

The links you provided are discussing whether it would be possible to contain the substance of the Book of Mormon in plates of the size reported by witnesses.

But that is not what Tarski is asking. He is wondering why the prolixity of the Book of Mormon would be there to begin with, since that verbosity was inscribed on a precious resource (metal plates), when the authors occasionally lament the lack of space they have. It's not a question of whether it would fit, but why it would be included at all.

The frequent reluctance of Book of Mormon authors to get to the damn point (see also: the Lord, in Doctrine and Covenants) makes it look more like someone rambling and providing filler than prophets trying to fit a divine message for our time into a finite medium that would have taken considerable time and resources to produce.

(As a side note, the following remark---"Orson Pratt had never seen the plates, but owing to his intimacy with the Prophet and the witnesses, his word has great weight"---is inconsistent with your idea that eyewitnesses who saw Joseph Smith purporting to translate should be discounted because they wouldn't know what Joseph Smith was seeing.)

[_Buffalo]

"Transcription" causes more problems than it solves, since you are now saying that God translated the record and any errors, anachronisms, or other problems with the text of the Book of Mormon are God's fault.

Of course. The black priesthood ban was god's fault. Polygamy was god's fault. Why wouldn't the Book of Mormon error and anachronisms be god's fault too? Joseph Smith was only writing what god told him to write.

Mopologists delight in throwing God under the bus to SAVE JOSEPH.

[_stemelbow]

Thank you for resolving any remaining doubts as to whether you have failed to understand the issue raised in the OP.

The links you provided are discussing whether it would be possible to contain the substance of the Book of Mormon in plates of the size reported by witnesses.

But that is not what Tarski is asking. He is wondering why the prolixity of the Book of Mormon would be there to begin with, since that verbosity was inscribed on a precious resource (metal plates), when the authors occasionally lament the lack of space they have. It's not a question of whether it would fit, but why it would be included at all. The frequent reluctance of Book of Mormon authors to get to the damn point (see also: the Lord, in Doctrine and Covenants) makes it look more like someone rambling and providing filler than prophets trying to fit a divine message for our time into a finite medium that would have taken considerable time and resources to produce.

(As a side note, the following remark---"Orson Pratt had never seen the plates, but owing to his intimacy with the Prophet and the witnesses, his word has great weight"---is inconsistent with your idea that eyewitnesses who saw Joseph Smith purporting to translate should be discounted because they wouldn't know what Joseph Smith was seeing.)

I get his point. I was offering an alternative possibility to what I was initially offering. The text could have included the writings that amount to Book of Mormon english. You know the phrase "and it came to pass" could have been a simple character itself. The complained about "I Nephi, having been aborn of bgoodly cparents, therefore I was dtaught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many eafflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a frecord of my proceedings in my days." though coming off awkwardly in english might have been beautifully constructed in Nephi's mind.

[_Darth J]

I get his point. I was offering an alternative possibility to what I was initially offering.

Neither of which are relevant to his point.

The text could have included the writings that amount to Book of Mormon english.

You mean kind of like how an Italian text of The Divine Comedy would include writings that amount to a rendition of The Divine Comedy in English?

Hmm.......you may be on to something there......

You know the phrase "and it came to pass" could have been a simple character itself.

Or it could have been 57 characters, while the entirety of the Book of Jarom could have been a single character.

Anything is possible!

The complained about "I Nephi, having been aborn of bgoodly cparents, therefore I was dtaught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many eafflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a frecord of my proceedings in my days." though coming off awkwardly in english might have been beautifully constructed in Nephi's mind.

And a fat lot of good that does us when God is translating Nephi's words into a scripture meant for our day.

[_moksha]

The plates had the condensed version while the stone had the details. Get with the Occam's mustache and beard trimmer and it becomes apparent.

Hope this helps.

[_Some Schmo]

I, Schmo, having been born of Mormon parents, or parents converted to Mormonism, but not born Mormon, but converted anyway, but you know what I mean, but if you don't I will tell you, but I think you do, write these words to tell you in case you don't, but I still think you do, but I'll still write them just in case, therefore was taught in the ways of Mormonism, nevertheless was favored of the Lord because neither of us are very clear, or concise, or economical in our words; yea, even verbose, bombastic, circumlocutory, diffuse, flowery, full of air, fustian, gabby, garrulous, grandiloquent, involved, loquacious, magniloquent, palaverous, periphrastic, pleonastic, prolix, redundant, repeating, repetitious, repetitive, rhetorical, talkative, talky, tautological, tautologous, tedious, tortuous, and windy, for I had first the book that which was the favorite of Droopy, and did use it a number of times, again and again, generally, many a time, much, oftentimes, ofttimes, over and over, recurrently, regularly, repeatedly, time after time, time and again or usually, as I did here, for clarity is important, the point needed, the message clear, alphebetically arranged, for I was communicating a great truth, or so I thought, but then I didn't, but then I did, but again I didn't, then persuaded it was, for it was even when I thought it wasn't, because it was, and so I did make a record of it for the Lord's new people, and it was good, acceptable, admirable, agreeable, bad, bully, capital, choice, commendable, congenial, deluxe, excellent, exceptional, favorable, first-class, first-rate, gnarly, gratifying, great, honorable, marvelous, neat, nice, pleasing, positive, precious, prime, rad, recherché, reputable, satisfactory, satisfying, select, shipshape, sound, spanking, splendid, sterling, stupendous, super, super-eminent, super-excellent, superb, superior, tip-top, up to snuff, valuable, welcome, wonderful, and worthy of decent report.*

*The preceding passage was tightly translated from the Hebrew word "bullshiva."

[_Chap]

Maybe the plates were really written in Turkish? See bolded passage.


Molière, Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme:

SCENE VI. CLÉONTE (dressed as a Turk), THREE PAGES
( carrying the vest of CLÉONTE), MR. JOURDAIN, COVIELLE.

CLE. Ambousahim oqui boraf, Giourdina, salamatequi.

COV. (to MR. JOURDAIN). That is to say, "Mr. Jourdain, may your
heart be all the year round a budding rose tree." It is a way of
speaking they have in that country.

MR. JOUR. I am your Turkish highness's humble servant.

COV. Carigar camboto oustin moraf.

CLE. Oustin yoc catamalequi basum base alla moran.

COV. He says, "May heaven grant you the strength of the lion and the
prudence of the serpent."

MR. JOUR. His Turkish highness does me too much honour, and I wish him
all manner of prosperity.

COV. Ossa binamen sadoc baballi oracaf ouram.

CLE. Bel-men.

COV. He says you must go quickly with him to prepare for the ceremony,
in order afterwards to see your daughter and conclude the marriage.

MR. JOUR. So many things comprised in two words?

COV. Yes, The Turkish language is like that, it says a good deal in a
few words. Go quickly where he wishes you.