LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

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_Daniel2
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LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _Daniel2 »

Though sadly, not in a particularly surprising way....

Poll: Near-split in US over legal gay marriage
Support for same-sex marriage has shifted to a narrow majority

By JENNIFER AGIESTA, LAURIE KELLMAN

WASHINGTON — Barbara Von Aspern loves her daughter, "thinks the world" of the person her daughter intends to marry and believes the pair should have the same legal rights as anyone else. It pains her, but Von Aspern is going to skip their wedding. Her daughter, Von Aspern explains, is marrying another woman.

"We love them to death, and we love them without being judgmental," the 62-year-old Chandler, Ariz., retiree said. "But the actual marriage I cannot agree with."


It's complicated, this question of legitimizing gay marriage. Americans are grappling with it from their homes to the halls of government in the shadow of a presidential election next year. The ambivalence is reflected in a new poll that shows the nation is passionate, conflicted and narrowly split on same-sex marriage.

Fifty-three percent of the 1,000 adults surveyed believe the government should give legal recognition to marriages between couples of the same sex, about the same as last year, according to the nationwide telephone poll by The Associated Press and the National Constitution Center. Forty-four percent were opposed.

People are similarly conflicted over what, if anything, the government should do about the issue.

Chart shows opinion poll results on gay marriage issues. Support for legal recognition of same-sex marriage has shifted in recent years, from a narrow majority opposed in 2009 to narrow majority support now. Some of the shift stems from a generational divide, with the new poll showing a majority of Americans under age 65 in favor of legal recognition for same-sex marriages, and a majority of seniors opposed.

In some places, government has moved ahead while the nation debates. New York in July became the sixth state, along with the District of Columbia, to legalize same-sex marriage. Still, the issue played a part in the special election Tuesday to replace disgraced former Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y. Democrat David Weprin's support for gay marriage cost him support among the district's Orthodox Jews, and he lost to Republican Bob Turner.

Also Tuesday, lawmakers in North Carolina, the only state in the Southeast that does not have language in its constitution banning gay marriage, voted to put the question on the 2012 ballot. Most Americans who live in states where gay marriage is not already legal say it is unlikely their state will pass such a law; just 20 percent think it is likely to become law in their state.

Americans also are conflicted on how to go about legalizing or outlawing gay marriage.

One option is banning gay marriage by constitutional amendment. About half of the poll's respondents, 48 percent, said they would favor such an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Most who feel this way do so intensely. About 40 percent would strongly favor such a change. Forty-three percent said they would oppose such an amendment, and 8 percent were neutral, according to the poll.

Most — 55 percent — believe the issue should be handled at the state level, however, and opinions on how states should act are split. People are about evenly divided on whether their states should allow same-sex marriages — 42 percent favor that and 45 percent are opposed — and tilt in favor of state laws that allow gay couples to form civil unions — 47 percent in favor, 38 percent opposed and 13 percent neutral, according to the poll.

"The different moral standards in different areas, probably, are the biggest reason that same-sex marriages are an issue," said Dale Shoemaker, 54, a military retiree from Boise, Idaho. If gay couples who want to get married live in a state that doesn't allow it, they can move to one that does, he said.

Either way, gay couples "should have benefits," Shoemaker said. "If they're living together and cohabitating and are a couple, (they should have) the insurance and retirement and that type of thing, the monetary benefits."

Nearly 6 in 10 (57 percent) in the poll shared Shoemaker's take when it comes to government benefits. They said same-sex couples should be entitled to the same legal benefits as married couples of the opposite sex. Forty percent felt the government should distinguish between them.

The poll did uncover some inequities. It suggests, for example, that opponents of same-sex marriage were far more apt to say that the issue is one of deep importance to them. Forty-four percent of those polled called it extremely or very important for them personally. Among those who favor legal marriage for gay couples, 32 percent viewed the issue as that important.

Von Aspern is an example of an American whose opposition to gay marriage is deep and abiding. It's based on her religion — she is Mormon — and as such it overrode other considerations when it came to her daughter's wedding.

"It was very difficult," Von Aspern says. "We had to bring them to the house and hug them and love them and tell them these things and not let that keep us apart."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44520743/ns/us_news-life/#


Sad--but, again, not suprising--that religion over-rides a willingness to attend one's daughter's wedding.

D
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_Some Schmo
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _Some Schmo »

It blows my mind that this is even an issue. It's one of those things that belies the idea that religious folks are as thoughtful/intellectual as the secular. People want to legally prevent the slight redefinition of a word! They can’t bear to consider marriage in any other way than their own, and can’t even accept that others choose to. Essentially, they want a law in place to control people’s thoughts. The essence of the message is, “It should be illegal to think of marriage differently than the way I think of marriage.”

For “F”’s sake, if you want to look at it in a way that’s different from everyone else, how can we stop you, whether gay marriage is legal or not? Does the law control your thoughts? Does it control your beliefs? You can believe anything you want. Thinking there’s an omnipotent superpower in the sky that gives a crap about you or what you do already proves nobody can control your beliefs. Think it if you want. Just don’t expect people to give a crap or accept unequal rights over your stupidity.

I want a law that defines intelligence as “a brain free from giving religious thought any serious consideration.” That’s what it traditionally means, after all. It’s a sacred thing, and I don’t want stupid religious people messing with it. Let's put it in the constitution too, just to legitimize my idea.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_LDSToronto
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _LDSToronto »

brainwashed Mormon mother wrote:"We love them to death, and we love them without being judgmental," the 62-year-old Chandler, Ariz., retiree said. "But the actual marriage I cannot agree with."
...
"It was very difficult," Von Aspern says. "We had to bring them to the house and hug them and love them and tell them these things and not let that keep us apart."


Ugh! I can't even figure out what to say! I've started typing about 10 times and erased my words, because I'm simultaneously sad, angry, outraged at a church that would contain such teachings, frustrated, seething....

This woman bought into what Jeffrey Holland said:

Jeff Holland wrote:Above all, keep your lines of communication open. Open communication between parents and children is a clear expression of love, and pure love, generously expressed, can transform family ties. But love for a family member does not extend to condoning unrighteous behavior. Your children are welcome to stay in your home, of course, but you have every right to exclude from your dwelling any behavior that offends the Spirit of the Lord.


Ya, that's some outpouring of love.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
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_LDSToronto
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _LDSToronto »

brainwashed Mormon mother wrote:"We love them to death, and we love them without being judgmental," the 62-year-old Chandler, Ariz., retiree said. "But the actual marriage I cannot agree with."
...
"It was very difficult," Von Aspern says. "We had to bring them to the house and hug them and love them and tell them these things and not let that keep us apart."


I mean, what the HELL does this woman think is going to happen to her relationship with her daughter?

Mom: Ya, we can't come to your wedding because we don't agree with your choice
Daughter: I totally understand, mom. Why don't you and dad come to dinner the week after the wedding. I'll ask Judy if she doesn't mind leaving for the evening so it doesn't make you feel comfortable.
Mom: I just KNEW this would work out. By the way, your nephew is getting baptised next week, and you aren't invited, you know, it would make the ward feel all weird and stuff to see you and Judy.
Daughter: Hey, I completely get it, mom. Love you!

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_DarkHelmet
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _DarkHelmet »

What a bitch.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
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_just me
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _just me »

Families are so damned important to the LDS church.

They don't see it as too big a deal to skip her wedding. She'll be excluded from all of theirs, afterall.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Blixa
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _Blixa »

I understand LDST's frustration. The sad thing is that the woman in the article is trying to "do the right thing:" she's just gotten incredibly poor pastoral advice.

There are many ways an "agree to disagree" stance can be handled with mutual respect. Holland's remarks fall very wide of that, though.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Daniel2
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _Daniel2 »

LDSToronto wrote:
brainwashed Mormon mother wrote:"We love them to death, and we love them without being judgmental," the 62-year-old Chandler, Ariz., retiree said. "But the actual marriage I cannot agree with."
...
"It was very difficult," Von Aspern says. "We had to bring them to the house and hug them and love them and tell them these things and not let that keep us apart."


I mean, what the HELL does this woman think is going to happen to her relationship with her daughter?

Mom: Ya, we can't come to your wedding because we don't agree with your choice
Daughter: I totally understand, mom. Why don't you and dad come to dinner the week after the wedding. I'll ask Judy if she doesn't mind leaving for the evening so it doesn't make you feel comfortable.
Mom: I just KNEW this would work out. By the way, your nephew is getting baptised next week, and you aren't invited, you know, it would make the ward feel all weird and stuff to see you and Judy.
Daughter: Hey, I completely get it, mom. Love you!

H.

I have a GREAT family, who I love very much--and I don't doubt they love me very much, as well. I never imagined, growing up, that I'd be facing the same ostracizing scenario as those in both the opening article, as well as your hypothetical situation, LDToronto.

It's as if Latter-day Saints have a total blind spot on realizing what "love" or "family" should mean, when it comes to accepting the same-sex spouse of a gay family member.

Thankfully, my parents have welcomed men I date into the home I share with them (where I moved, three years after my divorce, coming, out, and leaving the LDS Faith--and which is a mutually beneficial arrangement, given Dad's chronic degenerative disease and Mom's struggle to care for the home).

However, a couple of my siblings share the attitude that's reflected in this article. They adamantly refuse to accept even the mere PRESENCE of a man I may be dating near their children (even though I've made a point to ensure I wouldn't engage in any physical demonstrations of affection with any boyfriend I've had, out of respect for their feelings).

Last Christmas, several members of my family were visiting and staying in my parents' house, where I reside with my Mom and Dad (and for which I'm paying rent, to them). I was going to stop by the house with guy I was dating to pick something up. This man and I had been in my parent's and my home many times--Mom and Dad quite liked him. He was a fellow RM and former LDS member, and he and I had even visited Dad in nursing homes (who'd been in and out of nursing homes, the month before) and sang LDS hymns together to both my parents. We weren't stopping by during dinner or anything, or even during a family gathering--it was around 3:00 in the afternoon.

When mentioning to my Mom that he and I were going to stop by, she suggested I inform one of my older divorced brothers that I was going to stop by the house. This particular brother was home for the holidays and visiting with his 12-year-old son and the girlfriend he's been dating for a while, and with whom he's openly physically affectionate in the house. He's also a highly active and very devout member of the church (as is everyone in my family). Mom didn't want my brother to be surprised if I was to run into him. Well, when I called my brother and mentioned I and they guy I was dating (I just used his name) were going to swing by the house, my brother freaked out. He authortatively reprimanded me for having the audacity to even THINK about bringing a man around in front of his son, demanded I NOT bring the guy I was with by the house, and requested immediate repayment of a substantial loan that he'd given me to help with legal bills for my custodial issues. To his enormous credit, the guy I was dating immediately offered--and followed through--on fronting that money so I could give it to my brother.

That brother then initated a series of family phone calls to the rest of family, trying to rally them to support his idea that I should be told by everyone in the family I was not allowed to bring a boyfriend around the family. One brother sided with him... Ironically, and to their immense credit, two of my other brothers--both of whom are LDS bishops--refused to side with the other two.

Even so, that incident has caused a schism between my two brothers and I that has remained raw to this day--with no resolution, as yet, for the future. My mother has lamented that such divisions are occurring in our family, and keeps praying that we'll all find a way to overcome it somehow.

Someday, I hope to find a man with whom I can join my life and make my husband. There is, however, a sense of foreboding for that day, in that I know the joy I may feel when I hope to make such announcement will be tempered greatly by the reality that part of my family will refuse to attend, based on the matter of their moral principles, and it will certainly cause ongoing friction when it comes to whether or not I'll be bringing my husband to any future family gatherings and holidays.

Those in my family that object to my bringing a man around the house view it as an issue of the need for me to respect their religious views and ability to raise their children as they see fit. They don't recognize the need to "meet in the middle" by at least allowing a boyfriend (let alone husband) to attend, even if he and I were to agree to avoid physical affection.

I'd always loved the church growing up, and never conceived of a time when it would cause estrangement in my own family. That love I once held for the church makes it all the more strange and saddening, to me, once I became "a minority" that is rejected, and even feared and scapegoated for a multitude of cultural evils, by people in my community and family who once accepted and embraced me.

Anyway... that's my personal lament, for today. :-/

Thanks for everyone's comments...
Daniel2
Last edited by Guest on Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_consiglieri
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _consiglieri »

Blixa wrote: The sad thing is that the woman in the article is trying to "do the right thing:" she's just gotten incredibly poor pastoral advice.




It appears somebody has finally figured out how to exclude Mormons from weddings.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: LDS mother quoted in MSNBC article on same-sex marriage

Post by _just me »

Daniel2, I have no words. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
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