Using the seer stone to find the lost 116 pages

[_Darth J]

This is an issue that has been alluded to a few times around these parts, but without a forthcoming answer.

The FAIR wiki informs us that Joseph Smith could find hidden objects with seer stones.

http://fairwiki.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

Martin Harris recounted that Joseph could find lost objects with the second, white stone:

I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone." I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look to one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.
Joseph's mother also indicated that Joseph was sought out by some, including Josiah Stoal, to use the stone to find hidden valuables. He

came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.

Joseph referred to this incident in JS-H 1:55-56

So......given that Martin Harris was aware of Joseph Smith finding lost things with a seer stone, and a substantial part of the Book of Mormon manuscript got lost while Martin Harris was the scribe......why didn't Joseph Smith use his seer stone to find the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon?

[_Cardinal Biggles]

Given the recent dearth of TBMs on this board, may I venture a probable TBM response? Because God was upset that Joseph Smith had kept nagging Him about letting Harris show his wife the manuscript, He temporarily took away Smith's power to translate (D&C 3:14). It is safe to assume that God also would have taken away Smith's talent to find things with the seer stone.

Just a guess.

[_Darth J]

So......given that Martin Harris was aware of Joseph Smith finding lost things with a seer stone, and a substantial part of the Book of Mormon manuscript got lost while Martin Harris was the scribe......why didn't Joseph Smith use his seer stone to find the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon?

Given the recent dearth of TBMs on this board, may I venture a probable TBM response? Because God was upset that Joseph Smith had kept nagging Him about letting Harris show his wife the manuscript, He temporarily took away Smith's power to translate (D&C 3:14). It is safe to assume that God also would have taken away Smith's talent to find things with the seer stone.

Just a guess.

Let me help you a little here: the premise of the hypothetical TBM response is that God gave Joseph Smith the power to have people pay him to use seer stones to look for buried treasure and lost objects.

In other words, the Church has tried for 180 or so years to distance itself and/or distinguish itself from folk magic, and the argument you are suggesting---that folk magic works through the power of God---goes right back to square one.

(I realize this is not your argument, but your guess as to what a TBM might say. I don't want to bombard you with questions, Cardinal Biggles. You probably didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition........)

[_Cardinal Biggles]

Let me help you a little here: the premise of the hypothetical TBM response is that God gave Joseph Smith the power to have people pay him to use seer stones to look for buried treasure and lost objects.

In other words, the Church has tried for 180 or so years to distance itself and/or distinguish itself from folk magic, and the argument you are suggesting---that folk magic works through the power of God---goes right back to square one.

(I realize this is not your argument, but your guess as to what a TBM might say. I don't want to bombard you with questions, Cardinal Biggles. You probably didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition........)

I'll continue to play Mopologist, just for the fun of it.

In the Old Testament, we have incidences like Aaron, the brother of Moses, facing off against Pharaoh's magicians. The magicians' staves turned into snakes, presumably using magic, which we must assume is based in Satanic power. Then Aaron, using the power of God, turned his staff into a snake that devoured the other snakes. Although the forces on each side could be seen as being magical in a sense, Aaron's "magic" was actually God's power at work.

Well, it's the same with Joseph Smith and the seer stone! God gave Joseph Smith a talent (we believe that all talents come from God), and permitted him to practice using it to help his fellow man in finding lost objects. God often responds to prayers to find lost objects (usually car keys). Other incidences of people using "magic" (e.g., Sally Chase, Hiram Page) could have been fraudulent, or powered by Satan. But Joseph Smith was the exception--the real deal. Satan always has his counterfeits.

As for Smith using his talent to try to help people find buried treasure, well, there's no evidence that Smith succeeded in those efforts (if, indeed, the accounts of those efforts were reliable and referred to Smith and not somebody else). Nobody said that Joseph Smith was perfect, and sometimes he misunderstood the talent that God had given him as a seer and was influenced by unrighteous people to try to use it in ways that he shouldn't have. Smith's desire to help others was so great that sometimes he gave into pressure from others (e.g., Josiah Stoal) to use his talent in inappropriate ways. In those cases, Smith's talent didn't work. Like everyone else, Smith was learning line upon line, precept upon precept.

So, whaddaya think? Am I ready for publication in the FARMS Review?

Oh, and also, I suppose that a Mopologist would probably, just for the hell of it, throw in a CFR for the "the Church has tried for 180 or so years to distance itself and/or distinguish itself from folk magic" claim. After all, D&C 130:10-11 teaches us that those of us who are exalted will get our own seer stones! We have always believed in seer stones, and continue to do so.

[_Cardinal Biggles]

More playful Mopology:

The Book of Mormon contains an example of a holy relic temporarily ceasing to operate due to the unrighteousness of the operators: the Liahona. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Smith couldn't use the seer stone to find the lost manuscript.

[_Equality]

More playful Mopology:

The Book of Mormon contains an example of a holy relic temporarily ceasing to operate due to the unrighteousness of the operators: the Liahona. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Smith couldn't use the seer stone to find the lost manuscript.

But then Joseph repented and got his gift back, so at that time he could have used the seer stone to find the manuscript or discover what had happened to it. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Darth (Hope all is well with you)

why didn't Joseph Smith use his seer stone to find the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon?

Although I don't believe this is an official/church approved answer, I believe Joseph used to hide his seer stone between page 113 and 114 for safe keeping.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Darth J]

Cardinal Biggles:

Sadly, I think that if you posted your hypothetical apologetics under another name, pretending to be an apologist, your ideas would be warmly received by internet Mormons.

[_Cardinal Biggles]

More playful Mopology:

The Book of Mormon contains an example of a holy relic temporarily ceasing to operate due to the unrighteousness of the operators: the Liahona. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Smith couldn't use the seer stone to find the lost manuscript.

But then Joseph repented and got his gift back, so at that time he could have used the seer stone to find the manuscript or discover what had happened to it. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

TBM sez: "But God already told him what happened to it, right? But, yeah, if only Smith had repented faster, then maybe he could have used the seer stone to find the missing 116 pages before the bad guys modified them."