TBMs: Step back from the trees a bit

[_sock puppet]

I have come across what I consider to be a profound exit story at PostMormon.org. It is rich with insights. I know the poster who is okay with me starting this thread.

(sorry, this is long … I needed to write)

Some old heroes of mine (all bad boys of the church to one extent or another):

B.H. Roberts (The Truth The Way The Light is excellent climax/example)
Hyrum Andrus (Got doctorate on Studies of Joseph Smith, wrote several excellent books in the late 1950’s)
Fred C Collier (Collier’s Publishing Co. Lots of various books/pamphlets)

Anyone familiar with these men/works and what the study of this kind of “meat” material resulted in, in the early 80’s? (i.e. the Manti exodus).

These times were the beginning of my troubles with the Church, but from a bit different perspective than what most exit letters here talk about.

This was a period of time where a fair number of the top crop of blue-collar Mormons (i.e. the Kirby Nazis, full tithe payers, once a week temple go’er types) first started/dared to voice concern over the well known “Follow the Living Prophet” over the teachings of dead prophets do-or-die rule (even Joseph Smith/BY etc.).

LDS Inc: Can't be shackled by the past. We thank Brothers Joseph and Brigham for getting it going and getting us out here to Utah, but they had some pretty kooky ideas, i.e. that Brother Brigham thought elohim was Grandpa God to us and wore a beard, and well, that we just don't know much or teach the King Follett Sermon anymore. Sorry, Joseph.

These were the types of people who had the InfoBases collection of church books long before the internet was available to most of our homes (my first set was on floppy disks!). And we searched them diligently. Our discovery of things like Adam God (“The Lecture at the veil”) where found on our own searching/study/discussions over the likes of the wonderful InfoBase works.

LDS Inc: Oh, snap. It'll just be a matter of time before some of the members get tired of pablum. Their minds will be fevered by the InfoBases collection. God forbid, they'll want 'meat'--which Brother Joseph told us to consume only sparingly and in fall and winter when it's cold.

We had something that the average “Chappell Mormons” (is that the right term here?) did not have access to (and hence had no real idea of pre Joseph F. Smith doctrines). The Gospel According to Bruce (Mormon Doctrine - MD) was the only “meat” they had any exposure to. Heavily Joseph F. Smith-influenced doctrine which had worked for years to steer the ship clear of the distasteful older doctrines.

Real Mormonism that had been being put under wraps by then for decades. Late 20th Century LDS Church leaders could not allow all that effort to be undone, for the old doctrines to creep back in.

MD was laughable to us new breed of Mormons (the negative term “Mormon Intellectuals” soon popped out of this era). Sad part is, even MD fell from favor, and instruction for many years now has been strictly limited to the churches printed instruction material (yes the same manual used in the deacons quorum is the only meat available to the EQ and HPQ’s as well – rotated endlessly year after year (I think I just threw up a bit in my mouth).

Bull's eye! Our Author is very perceptive.

As we studied and started to see things like Talmage getting a room in the temple to write his president-signed book (Jesus the Christ) while the likes of the incredible B.H. Roberts was shunned and disliked by Pres. Smith. (Notice that even from the time of his death, B.H. was NEVER talked about in church: Hell most Chappell Mormons did not even known who he was, or had ever seen the History of the Church, or the Seventies Course in Theology series).

At BYU in the 70's, B.H. was one of those LDS unmentionables. Nothing to giggle about, like J Golden Kimball's profanity. Crackers, that's what the implication of any response was when anyone mentioned B.H. The responders would act with an air that B.H. was passe and had been intellectually 'disposed of', "now there will be another Nibley lecture tomorrow night at the Joseph Smith Building. You really should go." And because she was hot and mysterious enough I did, I endured three of his lectures, and the giddy crowds of BYU undergraduates egging Nibley on. Not my cup of tea.

How could there be discourse and hard feelings among the Brethren? Read B.H.’s autobiography some time; how could the First Presidency have been so cruel to B.H? This was unthinkable for our Prophets/Seers/Revelators!?

So we early apostates (in thought for some like me, in action for the brave souls that went to Manti)...we took that big scary step into the first true sign of apostasy: to doubt and even question our GA’s.

If only DHO had already been an apostle by then and given his divine instruction that the Brethren were supposed to be obeyed, even when they are wrong... .

Our only personal goals/purpose/need for the “outward” church was to bring us to the “inward” church (temple), with the ultimate goal of receiving our Callings and Elections Made Sure.

Damn it, why people think anyway. See where questioning leads? Just do as you're told.

However, generation after generation of GA’s continually softened the doctrines, until the heart and core of what we had studied (and were diligently seeking) were not only gone from the teachings, but people were being excommunicated/disfellowshipped for even speaking of them in open.

A pre-cursor event to the September 6 in 1993. Note, the 'continual softening of the doctrines' over generations? Is the 21st LDS Church really the faith of our fathers?

Anyone ever heard of the “Pederson letter” as a good example of this era. If interested, ask later, as I have an excellent story on this (I worked with Hersel in the Mt Timp Temple for 2 years)

That's Hersel Pederson our Author is referring to, who was the temple president at the Mt. Timpanogos Temple. My understanding is this:

Pederson sent a letter to a bishop who was grappling with the Adam-God like issues, to leave those issues alone. In the letter, Pederson told the story of another bishop's struggle. A member was teaching some of these things, and his SP called a church court against him for teaching them. The member exercised his appeal option, and the SP and the member met with a high-ranking GA. The GA told the Stake president to leave this member alone because he was teaching the truth. But then the GA turned to the member and warned him if he ever taught these things again, he'd be excommunicated. Sort of the Church's version of 'don't ask, don't tell'.

Elsewhere, our Author tells of being in the Timpanogos Temple with Hersel Pederson and asking about this letter. Rather loudly, Pederson states, “That letter has been my hell. Yes, the bishop leaked it and I’ve been trying to clean up the mess ever since.”

Remember, the base of our information--InfoBases--came from a group of very good TBM’s in Orem Utah, who’s main goal was to provide the world with truth and knowledge out of the “Best Books” (i.e. typically GA authored books or directly church sanctioned materials only).

The glory of God is intelligence. D&C 93:36.

Of course the Tanners have always been around, but there was not much in the way of "anti-mormon" materials at the time. The really good stuff came from those who had spent many moons in the church archives (they were wide open, at the time).

Not anymore. Got those archives closed right up.

As a Theologian/Religion/Historian professor for BYU, Hyrum Andrus was one of these men.

Hyrum did many special, multi-day “firesides” where he would preach pound upon pound of pure meat, which he had learned from all of his studies in the archives and from his doctorate (specializing in Navoo). He used to say “If you want to know the true doctrine of your religion, you need to study the men that knew Joseph Smith”.

LDS Inc: "If you want to know the true doctrine of your religion, you need to study the next May or November issue of the Ensign."

I used to have a set of about 50 tapes that were recorded from these firesides --- real Mormon theology! His published books are nearly impossible to find, but just as excellent for obtaining a detailed/in-depth discussion of Mormon theology. In my opinion, B.H was the greatest Theologian on Joseph Smith doctrines that ever lived. Hyrum is right behind him.

A theology. Yes. But today, not even doctrines, just lowly old teachings. 'Don't forget to read you issues of the Ensign.'

Hyrum lost his job at BYU and almost his membership in the church over these firesides. But, of course--as is easily found on the Internet now-a-days--it is easy to see that a good History Professor at BYU is about the shortest career known to man.

word

Hyrum loved the church and the temple, and simply ended up “shutting his mouth” to stay in.

The Brethren really don't like those who are better read on Mormon doctrinal history than the Brethren themselves are. But remember, no earrings for males, just one per ear for females.

Fred Collier was similar in that he had spent a bunch of time in the archives, pulling much of the information out and compiling it into quite a list of pamphlets/books, which put to print the deepest “mysteries of godliness” Mormon doctrines I’ve ever seen (I used to have two full sets of his documents, as he was fleeing from Hanna, at the time, to Mexico). Fred did not go to Manti, but did go Poly-fundy (viz., polygamist-fundamentalist).

Imagine that. A Mormon well studied in historical Mormon doctrine practicing The Principle.

So, with this bit (ok big bit) of background information, here I am through the 80’s and 90’s. I worked for 8 years, twice a week in the Provo and Timpanogos temples as an ordinance worker. I have been the initiatory director; introducing director; endowment director; and, assistant veil director. I worked Thursday and Friday night shifts. I would go into the temple every Thursday and start a fast which lasted until my shift ended Friday night. All the while on a QUEST for the promises of the oath and covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood – namely to know the mysteries of godliness, and to have my calling and election made sure.

I think we know where this is going. Defenders, get ready to bugle your refrain, the Author just didn't take the time to learn what his religion was about. Not "the Church's" fault.

Church was a bother … the people were totally ignorant of their own doctrine.

Chapel Mormons. Ignorance is bliss.

You want to talk elitist to the max! Hyrum once told me (I worked with him in the temple) “The only thing Mormons need to repent of is their own self righteousness”. I did not realize, at the time, that he was addressing the likes of me.

Anyway, along comes the year 2000, and beyond. I’ve read several posts where the authors have somewhat laughed at their own selves for all of the lost time/energy spent in a church which they left, when they found out about the strange doctrines.

Imagine me … not only did I know about these doctrines, they were my meat, my truth, my specially known mysteries. And low and behold wicked internet sites started to publish these cherished mysteries that I had held so dear, and spent so many years in dedicated searching to obtain. Pearls before swine, with blood atonement sized pearls! Truly heartbreaking (seriously).

So about this time I have a devastating personal spiritual experience (dealing with personal revelation, an area I diligently worked on). I don’t want to go into the specifics of this, but it left me with what I would call a “gapping wound deep to my soul”.

The background, as I understand it. Circa 2000, our Author, a true lover of the historical Mormon doctrines, was rocked by the DNA evidence against the Book of Mormon's historicity. He prayed, he pleaded with god to give him an answer to the dilemma that the DNA evidence posed to his faith. Nothing. Gradually, faith was replaced by questioning, and our Author became an agnostic, yet thinking that our basic sense of right-wrong that we each have was instilled in us.

I spent a year after this pleading with the lord to explain where I had fallen short … the heavens had turned to brass, and stayed that way the whole time. The wound would not heal and only festered as I felt abandoned by the lord. I was called to be a member of the Bishopric during this time, and hid my pain and rising doubts; this went on for two years.

The pain of seeing all of those years of quest proving unfruitful became too much for me. My pleadings for understanding simply changed to pleadings to take away the pain. I soon became totally inactive, and the gapping wound closed up and that part of the pain stopped.

Of course the next part of the pain was only to begin (but nowhere like the one I left); everyone here knows that part well. TBM wife, I put two boys on missions, and waited outside the temple (which I started up .. timp) as my two boys and daughter took out endowments and were married in the temple over the following years.

I stepped away from the intolerable pain back in 2002 and have since simply avoided dealing with my collapsing believe in those dear mysteries: still afraid, I suppose, to abandon them. And yet, from the intellectual, as well as a killer experience where I have found them to be untrue (and stepping back from the trees a bit, seeing how silly it all really was).

I remember an extended correspondence with someone over the internet many years back …a non Mormon …but theologian scholar …he spoke with excitement, at length about many of the doctrines. I remember being shocked when I realized that in spite of his enthusiasm in talking about the doctrines, he had zero belief in them. He loved the study, not the practice thereof.

For better or worse, I think that is where I’m at today. A lover of the theology, but a damned, non-believing apostate.

This tale is so detail laden, and the Author's emotion so obvious. 'A lover of the theology, but a damned non-believing apostate.'

[_Turkey]

Thanks for sharing, Sock Puppet.

[_sock puppet]

Thanks for sharing, Sock Puppet.

You're welcome, Turkey. It would be worth linking to PostMormon.org and reading as posted there, without my commentary interruptions. It is quite eloquent in its own right, as posted there.

[_Corpsegrinder]

(i.e. the Manti exodus).

Does this have something to do with the polygamist group in Manti?

[_Morley]

Excellent, Sox. Thank you for sharing that. Please extend our thanks to the author.

[_Nightlion]

Thanks for sharing, Sock Puppet.

You're welcome, Turkey. It would be worth linking to PostMormon.org and reading as posted there, without my commentary interruptions. It is quite eloquent in its own right, as posted there.

When I read this account a few weeks ago I thought I knew who it was. Apparently not so. It kills me to read about LDS folks who strive to get their Calling and Election made sure while they are in absolute ignorance about the basic gospel that must be kept a good while before they have proven anything before the Lord.

Kills me because of how spurned I consistently was for twenty years 1970--1990 attempting to clue people in on the real gospel. And I thought Manti was Jim Harmston's reaction to the Negro getting the priesthood. Talk about someone with no gospel expertise, I asked that group straight up what IS the gospel, and only got tripe.