Everything proves that the Church is true!

[_Darth J]

Look, we all know that the Church is true. Faithful members of the Church know it. Never-Mormons on this board have obviously felt the Spirit and are just in denial because it contradicts their preconceived notions. And of course formerly believing Latter-day Saints who are now apostate really know that the Church is true, but they are kicking against the pricks or straining at gnats or [insert trite biblical metaphor here].

But it isn't enough to just know that the Church is true. Once we know the Church is true, we will come to see that literally every single thing that happens not only doesn't damage the truthfulness of the Church, but actually proves that the Church is true.

As my first example of this principle in action, I have chosen the incident with Mark Hofmann and the Salamander Letter. I am assuming that you, Dear Reader, know about this incident. On the off chance that you are on a Mormonism-related internet message board and don't know what the Salamander Letter is, then may I suggest that you: 1. Google it; and 2. consider moving out of the cave on Mars in which you have been living for the last 30+ years.

Anyway, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a living apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, admitted that church leaders were deceived by Mark Hofmann.

Dallin H. Oaks, August 1987

Some have asked, how was Mark Hofmann able to deceive Church leaders?

As everyone now knows, Hofmann succeeded in deceiving many: experienced Church historians, sophisticated collectors, businessmen-investors, national experts who administered a lie detector test to Hofmann, and professional document examiners, including the expert credited with breaking the Hitler diary forgery. But why, some still ask, were his deceits not detected by the several Church leaders with whom he met?

In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.

The Church is not unique in preferring to deal with people on the basis of trust. This principle of trust rather than suspicion even applies to professional archives. During my recent visit to the Huntington Library in Pasadena, California, I was interested to learn that they have no formal procedures to authenticate the many documents they acquire each year. They say they consider it best to function in an atmosphere of trust and to assume the risk of the loss that may be imposed by the occasional deceiver.

But what about the gift of discernment? Shouldn't the leaders of the Church have known from the Spirit that Hofmann was a liar and a forgerer? No. The fact that the Bretheren were fooled proves that the are the Lord's chosen leaders.

"The Savior warned that in the last days even those of the covenant, the very elect, could be deceived by the enemy of truth." --Jeffrey R. Holland, "Safety for the Soul"

"We are told that some of the 'very elect' will be enticed and deceived." --David B. Haight, "Power of Evil"

"The ‘father of lies’ he [Satan] has been called, and such an adept has he become through the ages of practice in his nefarious work, that were it possible he would deceive the very elect.” --Joseph F. Smith, Juvenile Instructor, September 1902

So we see that one of the signs of being the very elect is being deceived. By being deceived, the Bretheren showed that they were indeed the very elect. Gerald and Sandra Tanner, on the other hand, were not deceived by Mark Hofmann. They saw through his ruse and concluded that the Salamander Letter was a forgery. Because they were not deceived, we know that they were not the Lord's very elect.

Few events in the modern history of the Church give such powerful evidence of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel as the Bretheren being fooled by the Salamander Letter. Why were they deceived? They were deceived because they were the Lord's very elect. This helps prove that the Church is true. Everything proves that the Church is true.

[_Drifting]

And so we see the birth of Mopologetics...

"Another source of differences in the accounts of different witnesses is the different meanings that different persons attach to words. We have a vivid illustration of this in the recent media excitement about the word 'salamander' in a letter Martin Harris is supposed to have sent to W.W. Phelps over 150 years ago. All of the scores of media stories on that subject apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word 'salamander' in the modern sense of a 'tailed amphibian.'

"One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of 'salamander,' which may even have been the primary meaning in this context in the 1820s.... That meaning... is 'a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire.'...

"A being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni:... the use of the words white salamander and old spirit seem understandable.

"In view of all this, and as a matter of intellectual evaluation, why all the excitement in the media, and why the apparent hand-wringing among those who profess friendship or membership in the Church?" (Dallin H Oaks "1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium," pages 22-23)

[_ludwigm]

And so we see the birth of Mopologetics...

"Another source of differences in the accounts of different witnesses is the different meanings that different persons attach to words. We have a vivid illustration of this in the recent media excitement about the word 'salamander' in a letter Martin Harris is supposed to have sent to W.W. Phelps over 150 years ago. All of the scores of media stories on that subject apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word 'salamander' in the modern sense of a 'tailed amphibian.'

"One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of 'salamander,' which may even have been the primary meaning in this context in the 1820s.... That meaning... is 'a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire.'...

"A being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni:... the use of the words white salamander and old spirit seem understandable.

"In view of all this, and as a matter of intellectual evaluation, why all the excitement in the media, and why the apparent hand-wringing among those who profess friendship or membership in the Church?" (Dallin H Oaks "1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium," pages 22-23)

1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium material is not available anywhere on official or semiofficial or quasiofficial sites.

As the "Little Factory" talk as (out of) General Conference material.

You know, TheChurch has nothing to hide.

"He who controls the past, controls the future" is a Party slogan to live by

[_sock puppet]

Look, we all know that the Church is true. Faithful members of the Church know it. Never-Mormons on this board have obviously felt the Spirit and are just in denial because it contradicts their preconceived notions. And of course formerly believing Latter-day Saints who are now apostate really know that the Church is true, but they are kicking against the pricks or straining at gnats or [insert trite biblical metaphor here].

But it isn't enough to just know that the Church is true. Once we know the Church is true, we will come to see that literally every single thing that happens not only doesn't damage the truthfulness of the Church, but actually proves that the Church is true.

As my first example of this principle in action, I have chosen the incident with Mark Hofmann and the Salamander Letter. I am assuming that you, Dear Reader, know about this incident. On the off chance that you are on a Mormonism-related internet message board and don't know what the Salamander Letter is, then may I suggest that you: 1. Google it; and 2. consider moving out of the cave on Mars in which you have been living for the last 30+ years.

Anyway, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a living apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, admitted that church leaders were deceived by Mark Hofmann.

Dallin H. Oaks, August 1987

Some have asked, how was Mark Hofmann able to deceive Church leaders?

As everyone now knows, Hofmann succeeded in deceiving many: experienced Church historians, sophisticated collectors, businessmen-investors, national experts who administered a lie detector test to Hofmann, and professional document examiners, including the expert credited with breaking the Hitler diary forgery. But why, some still ask, were his deceits not detected by the several Church leaders with whom he met?

In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.

The Church is not unique in preferring to deal with people on the basis of trust. This principle of trust rather than suspicion even applies to professional archives. During my recent visit to the Huntington Library in Pasadena, California, I was interested to learn that they have no formal procedures to authenticate the many documents they acquire each year. They say they consider it best to function in an atmosphere of trust and to assume the risk of the loss that may be imposed by the occasional deceiver.

But what about the gift of discernment? Shouldn't the leaders of the Church have known from the Spirit that Hofmann was a liar and a forgerer? No. The fact that the Bretheren were fooled proves that the are the Lord's chosen leaders.

"The Savior warned that in the last days even those of the covenant, the very elect, could be deceived by the enemy of truth." --Jeffrey R. Holland, "Safety for the Soul"

"We are told that some of the 'very elect' will be enticed and deceived." --David B. Haight, "Power of Evil"

"The ‘father of lies’ he [Satan] has been called, and such an adept has he become through the ages of practice in his nefarious work, that were it possible he would deceive the very elect.” --Joseph F. Smith, Juvenile Instructor, September 1902

So we see that one of the signs of being the very elect is being deceived. By being deceived, the Bretheren showed that they were indeed the very elect. Gerald and Sandra Tanner, on the other hand, were not deceived by Mark Hofmann. They saw through his ruse and concluded that the Salamander Letter was a forgery. Because they were not deceived, we know that they were not the Lord's very elect.

Few events in the modern history of the Church give such powerful evidence of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel as the Bretheren being fooled by the Salamander Letter. Why were they deceived? They were deceived because they were the Lord's very elect. This helps prove that the Church is true. Everything proves that the Church is true.

The more gullible one is, the more elect of god he is despite having god-given powers of discernment.

I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court will be quoting Professor Oaks regarding that bit of logic.

[_Fence Sitter]

Does anyone know how much the Huntington Library will pay for documents?

[_The Mighty Builder]

Darth J

I am saved now that I have read your eloquent dissertation about deception and the elect of Mormon Jebus. Had you posted this yesterday I would have been back in Church. But by your leave, I will be once again a pew sitter in my assigned Congregation next Sunday. Bless you, Bless you, Bless you.

[_Buffalo]

Now the gift of discernment, like the gift of tongues, is evidence of apostasy!