White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

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_RayAgostini

Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _RayAgostini »

Drifting wrote:Good morning Ray, hope you're well.


I am, thank you.

Drifting wrote:I had a debate with stemelbow (remember him?) once about this. He had used the word 'many' and when we finally got down to the number he actually meant, it was best described as 'hardly any'.

I'm sure there have been Mormon Bishops who have been racists.
Fortunately I have not met any. Most Bishops I have interacted with are extremely uncomfortable with the Priesthood ban and what the Church has taught on this type of thing in the past. They have no answer for it that fits with being a Christ like Church.

In the light of today's society the language of the Book of Mormon etc and the Priesthood Ban and the comments of some senior Church leaders, including Prophets, can be classed as racist - even if society didn't see it that way back then.


No doubt. But does the Book of Mormon support racism?

32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.(2 Ne. 26: 32-33)
_Drifting
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Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _Drifting »

seems to contradict with...

2 Nephi 5: 21
'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'


God needs to get his story straight...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_RayAgostini

Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _RayAgostini »

Drifting wrote:seems to contradict with...

2 Nephi 5: 21
'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'


God needs to get his story straight...


Indeed he does:

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.


Jacob 3:8.
_Drifting
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Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _Drifting »

RayAgostini wrote:
Indeed he does:

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.


Jacob 3:8.


Quality!
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Yoda

Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _Yoda »

Daheshist wrote:I've asked many white Mormon bishops over the years if racism exists in the Church. They told me, "No, I've never seen it".

There you go! If a white Mormon has not "seen" racism in the Church, then no racism exists in the Church. If you can't see something with your own eyes....it does not exist.


Darrick--

To be fair, don't we all evaluate our religion based on our own personal experiences?

Obviously, during your personal experience with the Church, you viewed both racism and sexism. That, however, does not mean that another bishop sincerely did NOT view these things.

And, frankly, isn't it a GOOD thing that the bishops you spoke with had NOT viewed racism?

I think that we need to look at where the Church is NOW, today.

I don't think that anyone can argue that racism was alive and well in the Church of the past, particularly the pre-1978 era of the Church.

However, I also think that there were many members who were relieved when the priesthood ban was lifted because it was something that they did not understand.

My personal interpretation is that the priesthood ban should have never existed in the first place. It was an act of man, not an act of God.

Again, I think this also goes to the "post 30" crowd that we were discussing in another thread. The folks who are in their 30's really have a different view of the Church than us "older folks" who are in our late 40's.

And, frankly, I REJOICE at the differences! The Church of today is a much nicer Church to belong to. :-)
_KevinSim
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Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _KevinSim »

liz3564 wrote:My personal interpretation is that the priesthood ban should have never existed in the first place. It was an act of man, not an act of God.

Liz3564, I find myself agreeing with you. I take what Wilford Woodruff said about God not permitting the presidents of the LDS Church to lead the Latter-day Saints astray, quite seriously, but I don't take that to mean God has insured that everything those presidents say will be in complete conformance with God's will. I think it's totally possible Brigham Young may have thought God was telling him to keep the priesthood from blacks, when in fact God had nothing of the sort in mind. Did God try to tell the succeeding presidents to get rid of the ban, and was it the case that none of them (until Spencer Kimball) were receptive enough? Or was the matter so unimportant to God for 134 years that He didn't feel the need to tell any of His presidents how He really felt about the matter? I don't really know.

Of course I should point out that my wife thinks that God did Himself ban blacks from holding the priesthood, but she has made it clear that she has no idea what God's reasons were for supporting the ban. In all fairness I should say that quite frankly I don't know whether she's right or I'm right.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_Yoda

Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _Yoda »

KevinSim wrote:
liz3564 wrote:My personal interpretation is that the priesthood ban should have never existed in the first place. It was an act of man, not an act of God.

Liz3564, I find myself agreeing with you. I take what Wilford Woodruff said about God not permitting the presidents of the LDS Church to lead the Latter-day Saints astray, quite seriously, but I don't take that to mean God has insured that everything those presidents say will be in complete conformance with God's will. I think it's totally possible Brigham Young may have thought God was telling him to keep the priesthood from blacks, when in fact God had nothing of the sort in mind. Did God try to tell the succeeding presidents to get rid of the ban, and was it the case that none of them (until Spencer Kimball) were receptive enough? Or was the matter so unimportant to God for 134 years that He didn't feel the need to tell any of His presidents how He really felt about the matter? I don't really know.

Of course I should point out that my wife thinks that God did Himself ban blacks from holding the priesthood, but she has made it clear that she has no idea what God's reasons were for supporting the ban. In all fairness I should say that quite frankly I don't know whether she's right or I'm right.

When the Church was originally restored under Joseph Smith, no such ban existed. If God had commanded the priesthood ban to exist, doesn't it make sense to follow that it would have happened when all of the keys of the priesthood were originally restored to the earth? Also, it is documented that Joseph Smith was opposed to slavery, and that he did bestow the priesthood on at least one black man while he was alive.

To me, it is just too convenient that Brigham Young, who was very outspoken in his racial tendencies, would initiate the priesthood ban.

The same goes for Joseph Smith and polygamy. Joseph getting caught with Fanny in the barn was just an awfully convenient catalyst for the "plural marriage" revelation.
_ludwigm
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Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _ludwigm »

There is no racism in the Church, only the claim to it.


(I've paraphrased a new Hungarian saying - product of the last decade - about antisemitism.)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_KevinSim
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Re: White Mormon Bishops: No racism in the Church!

Post by _KevinSim »

liz3564 wrote:The same goes for Joseph Smith and polygamy. Joseph getting caught with Fanny in the barn was just an awfully convenient catalyst for the "plural marriage" revelation.

Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy, especially with relatively young girls, is the second most thing that bothers me about the LDS Church. I can see the temptation to brand Smith as a womanizer and be done with it. But the more I look at the issue the more I think something odd is going on, that Smith as a womanizer wouldn't fully explain.

I read a little over half of Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness about the plural wives of Smith, and there was kind of a pattern there. The book told the stories of the wives in the chronological order Joseph Smith married them in, but for each wife it told the complete story of her life (as far as Compton could determine it), so the narratives of the different chapters overlapped each other. But the pattern was, Smith married the plural wife, there were a few years, Smith died, in many occurrences one of the apostles married the wife, and the wife had child after child after child.

This didn't happen all the time. Some of the plural wives didn't remarry, and some of them didn't have any children at all. But this pattern happened often enough that I got thinking, Smith as a womanizer doesn't really explain this. Granted Joseph Smith only lived one to five years after marrying each plural wife, whereas many of the wives themselves and the apostles who married them lived out their normal lifespans. But still. Joseph Smith was a very fertile man. Over the space of the 17 years he was married to Emma, Emma got pregnant nine times. And yet there is only one well documented child born to Smith by his plural wives. I'm talking about Josephine Lyon, whose mother Sylvia told her that Joseph Smith was her father. If Joseph Smith was as much a womanizer as the critics claim, why in the world didn't he end up having more children by his plural wives?

Of course, some of this gets kind of fuzzy. If you go to the website "http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm" you discover that Mary Elizabeth Rollins said she knew of at least three children born to Joseph Smith by his plural wives, and later at that website it says historians "have previously identified eight possible children of Joseph Smith borne by his plural wives." But then the website goes on to state that DNA testing has proven that three of those eight are not children of Smith, and to state that DNA testing hasn't confirmed that Smith fathered any of the eight, though it says that test results for Josephine are "promising," and it appears that the tests are currently ongoing, so we don't have the last word yet.

But I kind of appeal to the thoroughness of Compton's book. Smith married his about forty wives in as much secrecy as he could manage, and yet Compton has done a reasonably good job of documenting possibly all of them. How could Smith and those wives hide from Compton births that could have coincided with Smith's lifetime? And yet the only birth that Compton comes close to confirming is Josephine's. How is it possible that Mary Elizabeth knew of three children that could have been Joseph's but Compton found no record of them?

So I ask again, why so few pregnancies? Why so few births? What's going on here?

Also, I'm going to be very interested in the eventual outcome of the DNA testing on Josephine Lyon.

The thing that most bothers me about the LDS Church also involves women. I was working as an assistant clerk in a ward in Spanish Fork, Utah, with the clerk and another assistant clerk in the clerk's office, when my eleven-year-old second daughter Lizzie wandered over and asked us if she could help us with what we were doing. None of us knew what to reply, so a brief period of silence followed. "Or," I paraphrase Lizzie, "can't I help because I'm eleven, and I'm a girl?" Some hours later I drew Lizzie aside and told her that yes, at eleven she can't really do any clerk stuff, but when she turned twelve and became a Beehive then she could do things like be secretary of the Beehives and then do clerk stuff for them.

Still, Lizzie's question has haunted me ever since. I'm not such a liberal that I want to see women as bishops or stake presidents, but I would welcome a change in church policy that let women become clerks, assistant clerks, Sunday School presidents, or ward mission leaders.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
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