BCSpace and Official Doctrine--A Few Questions

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I find it interesting that Mr. BCSpace feels his subjective anecdotal experience is somehow more reliable than anyone else's. This makes three weak spots in his posture:

1) His definition of Official Doctrine has never been officially declared IAW his definition of Official Doctrine thus rendering it moot.

2) His definition of Official Doctrine holds him accountable to his definable definition of Official Doctrine thus undermining his apologetics when a critic produces "official doctrine".

3) Mr. BCSpace feels his subjective anecdotal experience is somehow more reliable than anyone else's subjective anecdotal experience thus placing him in the uneviable position of inventing doctrine that isn't Official Doctrine as defined by himself thus negating his attempt at apologetics.

In other words, he's just making s*** up & passing it off as a legitimate Mormon position.

- VRDRC

[_moksha]

1. Why is the word "revelation" not mentioned anywhere in this definition? Joseph Smith was big on revelation--the modern-church; not so much. Is there any indication this was how Joseph Smith viewed doctrine as being established?

2. Why do fifteen men have to "counsel together"? What are the counseling about? Doesn't God just reveal this sort of thing anymore? (See question No. 1)

--Consiglieri

Perhaps this could all be handled as group revelation (when needed). There is already precedence established for this through Lamanite sweat lodges and peyote circles.

[_Drifting]

I suppose I should test the waters here to see whether you reject them or not. Please state yes or no after each item below. Yes, if it is official doctrine and No if it is not official doctrine. K, here we go.

1. Sexual intercourse with Mary: “The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” Journal of discourses vol. 8, page 115. "There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events..." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.)

2. Personal atonement: "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 247; see also, Vol. 4, pp. 53-54, 219-220.)

3. JofD is scripture: "I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

4. Spoken word of BY is scripture: "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95.)

5. Damnation for denying polygamy: "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

6. Adam *is* Heavenly Father (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)

7. Catholic church is the whore of the earth: It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this Satanic organization.” McConkie

8. Monogamy is evil: "Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there,..."
- The Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862

9. Death for mixing races: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

Come back bcspace, come back, don't run away.....

[_bcspace]

I suppose I should test the waters here to see whether you reject them or not. Please state yes or no after each item below. Yes, if it is official doctrine and No if it is not official doctrine. K, here we go.

1. Sexual intercourse with Mary: “The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” Journal of discourses vol. 8, page 115. "There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events..." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.)

2. Personal atonement: "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 247; see also, Vol. 4, pp. 53-54, 219-220.)

3. JofD is scripture: "I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

4. Spoken word of BY is scripture: "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95.)

5. Damnation for denying polygamy: "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

6. Adam *is* Heavenly Father (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)

7. Catholic church is the whore of the earth: It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this Satanic organization.” McConkie

8. Monogamy is evil: "Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion there,..."
- The Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862

9. Death for mixing races: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)


Come back bcspace, come back, don't run away.....

Already responded to the list. Sorry, you'll have to think of something else.