G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

[_Mary]

Very good find Miss Taken. Oliver Huntington was Zina and Precinda Lathrop Huntington's brother, Zina was Joseph's polyandrous wife and then Brigham Young's polyandrous wife. Precinda was one of Smith's wive as well. Oliver was an insider, as was most of his family. Their brother Dimick was a constable in Nauvoo and a central character in the Mountain Meadows story.

The intertwining of these families is central in understanding early Mormon history.

So yes, Oliver Huntington is as reliable source as far as these kinds of reminiscences go. Historians have long used his accounts for the events in Nauvoo, Winter Quarters, and Utah.

I guess, that what I am considering, particularly in the light of William Law's worries regarding his own life, is whether Joseph was capable of what he believed was 'holy murder'. It's not an area that I feel particularly comfortable about looking into. I remember on the Mad board a few years back looking into the attempted assassination of Lilburn Boggs and the concerns of other early prominent non-members. But considering the times, (I'm doing my best not to be guilty of presentism) the heightened tensions among Mormons and Non-Mormons/Apostates then it seems increasingly likely to me, that there were sanctioned killings in order to protect the organisation and to seek retribution.

Would there have been biblical and Book of Mormon precedent for this. Yes. Laban, Moses, Ananias and Sapphira to name a few that immediately come to mind. (I put in Ananias and Sapphira, because if one takes out the miraculous element, then their deaths could be seen as suspicious..)...

[_cafe crema]

Just me, do you have any information on birth rate?

Mormon polygamists shared the flaws of the fruit fly

[_consiglieri]

These "connections" became obvious to me back in the '80s, after reading Mormon Enigma. I assumed you'd read it? If not, the relevant chapters are 10 & 11, "More Wives and a Revelation", and "The Poisoning".

You were way ahead of me on this one, Ray.

I have not read Mormon Enigma, but plan on doing so after I work my way through Quinn's two volumes of The Mormon Hierarchy, which I just started last night.

All the Best to you, my down under friend.

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

The point that I was trying to make is that a journal entry is just that, a journal entry. I don't put much into it. Clayton was writing about something that happened two years previously. And I am sure that Joseph said more than what was recorded by clayton. Also, who is to say that all was right in the entry. And why did clayton remain a faithful member of the church with all this going on? Something is not right in the entry.

From a legal perspective, journal entries have greater evidentiary weight than later reminiscences so long as they were contemporaneously recorded. The idea is that a person is more likely to be accurate and truthful when documenting things from day to day in a personal diary not meant for public consumption than in writing something later and for the public eye.

As to Clayton, it is my understanding the LDS Church has put great weight on his journal inasmuch as he was one of Joseph Smith's personal secretaries, and a large portion of The History of the Church is based on Clayton's journals, frequently making his third person accounts of Joseph Smith's statements into first person accounts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_just me]

Just me, do you have any information on birth rate?

Mormon polygamists shared the flaws of the fruit fly

Thanks café!

[_consiglieri]

I guess, that what I am considering, particularly in the light of William Law's worries regarding his own life, is whether Joseph was capable of what he believed was 'holy murder'.

I have finished listening to the podcast now, and while listening I kept waiting for John Dehlin to bring up the obvious question regarding the allegations of Joseph Smith putting out a hit on William Law--"But he wasn't killed, was he?"

Grant Palmer mentioned several times that Law went for 43-years without saying anything about Mormonism, and I kept thinking this alleged "hit" by Joseph Smith didn't have a lot of teeth, then.

Is there any evidence of anybody actually being murdered whom Joseph Smith is alleged to have wanted dead?

I know there is a question about Lilburn Boggs getting shot at his home in Missouri, and Orrin Porter Rockwell being the likely suspect. This also was brought up in the podcast.

But it is my understanding that Rockwell was actually arrested in Missouri for the offense and put on trial and acquitted. It is hard for me to imagine Mormon Rockwell (sorry for the pun) being put on trial in Missouri and getting acquitted unless evidence was non-existent.

If my recollection about Rockwell being tried and acquitted for the crime of shooting Boggs is correct, I think it was remiss for this to have not been brought up in the podcast.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Equality]

I guess, that what I am considering, particularly in the light of William Law's worries regarding his own life, is whether Joseph was capable of what he believed was 'holy murder'.

I have finished listening to the podcast now, and while listening I kept waiting for John Dehlin to bring up the obvious question regarding the allegations of Joseph Smith putting out a hit on William Law--"But he wasn't killed, was he?"

Grant Palmer mentioned several times that Law went for 43-years without saying anything about Mormonism, and I kept thinking this alleged "hit" by Joseph Smith didn't have a lot of teeth, then.

Is there any evidence of anybody actually being murdered whom Joseph Smith is alleged to have wanted dead?

I know there is a question about Lilburn Boggs getting shot at his home in Missouri, and Orrin Porter Rockwell being the likely suspect. This also was brought up in the podcast.

But it is my understanding that Rockwell was actually arrested in Missouri for the offense and put on trial and acquitted. It is hard for me to imagine Mormon Rockwell (sorry for the pun) being put on trial in Missouri and getting acquitted unless evidence was non-existent.

If my recollection about Rockwell being tried and acquitted for the crime of shooting Boggs is correct, I think it was remiss for this to have not been brought up in the podcast.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

From Wikipedia:

Boggs, who was from Independence, moved to a house within the City of Zion plot in Independence after the Mormons were evicted from Missouri and after he left office. His home was three blocks east of Temple Lot.[2] On the rainy evening of May 6, 1842, Boggs was shot by an unknown party who fired at him through a window as he read a newspaper in his study. Boggs was hit by large buckshot in four places: two balls were lodged in his skull, another lodged in his neck, and a fourth entered his throat, whereupon Boggs swallowed it. Boggs was severely injured. Several doctors—Boggs' brother among them—pronounced Boggs as good as dead; at least one newspaper ran an obituary. To everyone's great surprise, Boggs not only survived, but gradually improved.

The crime was investigated by Sheriff J.H. Reynolds, who discovered a revolver at the scene, still loaded with buckshot. He surmised that the suspect had fired upon Boggs and lost his firearm in the dark rainy night when the weapon recoiled due to its unusually large shot. The gun had been stolen from a local shopkeeper, who identified "that hired man of Ward's" as the most likely culprit. Reynolds determined that the man in question was Orrin Porter Rockwell, a close associate of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.. Reynolds eventually caught Orrin Porter Rockwell and held him for almost a year while he awaited trial.[citation needed] Reynolds could not produce any evidence that Rockwell was involved in any way and he was acquitted of all charges concerning Boggs, after prominent lawyer Alexander Doniphan agreed to defend him.

Some Mormons saw the assassination attempt positively: An anonymous contributor to The Wasp, a pro-Mormon newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, wrote on May 28 that "Boggs is undoubtedly killed according to report; but who did the noble deed remains to be found out."[3] Rockwell denied involvement in oblique terms, stating that he had "done nothing criminal". Also at about this time, John C. Bennett, a disaffected Mormon, reported that Smith had offered a cash reward to anyone who would assassinate Boggs, and that Smith had admitted to him that Rockwell had done the deed. He went on to say that Rockwell had made a veiled threat against Bennett's life if he publicized the story. Joseph Smith vehemently denied Bennett's account, speculating that Boggs — no longer governor, but campaigning for state senate — was attacked by an election opponent. Mormon writer Monte B. McLaws, in the Missouri Historical Review, supported Smith, averring that while there was no clear finger pointing to anyone, Governor Boggs was running for election against several violent men, all capable of the deed, and that there was no particular reason to suspect Rockwell of the crime. This opinion was not shared[citation needed] by Rockwell's most noted biographer, Harold Schindler. Whatever the case, the following year Rockwell was arrested, tried, and acquitted of the attempted murder (Bushman, p. 468), although most of Boggs' contemporaries remained convinced of his guilt.

[_RayAgostini]

....after I work my way through Quinn's two volumes of The Mormon Hierarchy, which I just started last night.

Highly recommended.