Blacks and the priesthood: the church never actually ...

[_sock puppet]

Well, one GA said "forget what BY said, forget what I said...We now have further light and knowledge."

That excuse doesn't hold water. If elohim/jehovah did not give the directive to withhold the priesthood from black men until 1978, why did those prophets hold it from them for 140 years? Either that discrimination emanated from elohim/jehovah--the source of all light and knowledge, per Mormonism--or else it was made up and then perpetuated by Mormon prophets until society's morality had so distanced the morality made up by Mormon prophets that the Church was shamed into changing it in 1978.

So, which is it: (a) elohim/jehovah are the source of that discrimination, or (b) early Mormon prophets added requirements (not being black) for holding the priesthood beyond what elohim/jehovah informed those early Mormon prophets was required to hold the priesthood?

If #(a), then elohim/jehovah are morally deficient compare to us 'children' in the societal advancement of morality. That's obviously problematic for Mormon defenders. It leads to the conclusion that we can do better at becoming better people towards one another without elohim/jehovah than with their 'light and knowledge'. So no need for the Mormon prophets as oracles here for elohim/jehovah.

If #(b), then we know that the Mormon prophets are making stuff up, leading the Church astray. If that's the case, then what else have they made up and did not come from elohim/jehovah. Again, society did better without the Mormon prophets, even if it was society becoming further enlightened from inspiration from elohim/jehovah. This outcome too makes the Mormon prophets not only superfluous for moral development of man, but shows them to have been an impediment.

Any way you slice it, Mormon defenders need to just hope the topic is raised less and less. The best defense for Mormonism on this topic is to keep their pie holes shut.

[_Jaybear]

The church did show leadership at the time of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was far ahead of the game when it came to blacks. Certainly when compared to other churches, the LDS church does just fine in comparison.

No, actually it doesn't.

The morality/immorality of slavery was the most hotly debated issue of the last millennium.

The LDS Church, ostensibly led by God's mouthpiece, declared that slavery was not only moral, but that slavery was, like marriage, a divine institution ... a gift from God to humanity.

By contrast many churches, without God's prophet to guide them, declared unequivocally that slavery
was immoral.

If Brigham Young exemplifies the moral guidance one can expect to receive by following God's chosen prophet on such weighty moral issues as slavery, does anyone really need a prophet?

[_Blixa]

I remember reading some past thread that mentioned trading a slave in early Utah as part of tithing. Does anyone know more about that? Sounds like a Blixa level question, but hoping someone might know.

It's mentioned in a Salt Lake Tribune article here. Second to last paragraph. Also here. I don't know the original source.

Morley dug up the example I know best, Green Flake as back tithing payment. Some of this information can probably be found in Leonard Arrington's biography of Brigham Young and If I recall correctly, Arrington may have also written up a short essay on these first black "pioneers" for the Utah Historical Quarterly or similar journal.

The Tribune article Morley linked to is a good summary of the issue in Utah and even mentions the Indian slave trade, which like all things involving Native Americans and early Utah Mormon history was a mixture of noble sentiment, casual racism, attempted kindnesses and bungling. I'm speaking here of the general attitudes and practices of Mormon leaders; on the ground there are instances of genuine kind and friendly relations between Native Americans, Mormons and non Mormons.

[_just me]

HAHA! It's like we talk about the same thing all the time...oh wait.

sock...remember this idea you had? Looks like the PTB read it and are taking it under advisement. You should send a bill.

The best defense for Mormonism on this topic is to keep their pie holes shut.