“If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair.” – C.S. Lewis
I think this is what drives me Ray, looking for a more objective truth, both spiritual and factual.
So what is it that drives you all? You who have taken an even greater interest in Mormonism since you left the Church. Is it a need to be justified? A need to understand your past, your culture, your upbringing? A need to understand how you could have fallen for a "fraud"?
Not really, on any accounts Ray. I don't need justification.
I think that for converts anyway, the immediate admonition to get a 'spiritual witness' has its problems. I feel good, so that's the spirit, and then any questions I have, well they will sort themselves out, because the church is true.
I've often felt that it would be so much better to put both mind and heart into investigating Mormonism before baptism. That includes having the fullest and most balanced picture possible. Honesty is always the best policy, and the church in my opinion must be more honest with its people and investigators. I know things are getting better. That's good.
You don't have to believe in Santa Claus to believe in Christmas. You don't have to believe in lighter-than-air reindeer to believe in exchanging gifts with friends and family. You don't have to believe in the virgin birth to gather together and share a feast with those you love.
Agreed. That's a really good quote.
Why are you still not at peace? It's clear from most threads here that you are not? What so bothers you, and why are you so relentless in your pursuit of proving Mormonism "wrong". What is this obsession all about? Some kind of "spiritual witness" you had long ago, but which you feel doesn't match your current "reason and logic"?
Not everything about Mormonism bothers me. A few things do.
I don't know what others think, but I would think that looking in here at MDB, from an outsider's point of view, I'd see a rather obsessed bunch. Do blood transfusions equally bother you? Does the Eucharist offend you? Do people outside the Church all get on well with no problems? No family division? No one has ever suffered enormous pain and rejection outside of Mormonism?
My husband doesn't get my interest in Mormonism, but then he also doesn't get my interest in near death experiences, or in Early Christianity! To each his/her own I guess!!
Or is it that, post-Mormonism, you still haven't found what you're looking for?
There's another thread on here at the moment about where you go after Mormonism. Made me think a lot. I like a lot of Mormon Theology, I like a lot of Christian Theology. But no, in terms of a community I think the best I've got is places like this. If I tell non-members I am Mormon, you can see the 'walls' go up as they view the religion as strange and fraudulent. So no non-member ever really gets you. (except for my husband) Mormons, once you express doubt or dare to criticize, (I think quite justifiably so, because some things really do need criticizing) then you are viewed as apostate, antagonist, and in the hands of Satan. A member will use Lehi's dream (wish they'd read Joseph's father's account of the tree of life but that's another matter), and will put you in the filthy water, or in the mists, or if you speak out, in the great and spacious building. So where do you go for community. To people who really 'get you'. I come to places like this. Even got to meet up with a group of ex-members here in the UK the other month and it was SO nice to converse with people who 'got' you. Understood.
And you'd rather condemn your past, than moving positively forward to a better and more meaningful life (is that even possible?)? Others need to "be warned", you say? Please don't be so arrogant. Thousands of Mormons, just as "educated" as you are, still believe, and find happiness in Mormonism. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." The universe is a big place, and therein lies possibilities almost unimagined. So what brings your "conclusions" to such a degree of certainty? How do you positively know that Mormonism is "not true"? "Logic"? "Historical evidence"? You think "Mormonism" is limited to this sphere of existence alone, and can be weighed and judged by earth's "empirical values" alone?
I don't see Mormonism as true or false, rather that some parts of it are useful and productive and positive and other parts are actually not useful, not productive and very negative and destructive to the human spirit. That's the doctrine and theology. On a historical note, then yes some parts of what is taught today are not historically accurate, which is a pity.
I greatly admire those that know a fuller history of the church and still believe, but we both know that there are thousands upon thousands of LDS who have no idea about the problematic areas of the past and are happy to condemn those who have struggled and left without really understanding beyond being happy to make trite comments about why they left. I'm still fighting this and I've been out 20 years now and my reasons for leaving are still being misrepresented even by some of my active 'friends'. It hurts.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, or antagonistic. I like many here on this board, but I feel that I cannot condone the continuing assaults upon Mormonism. I see little point in it. It hasn't persuaded me to change my view, which is to keep an open mind, even to things we might feel are "impossible".
I try to keep an open mind like you. I think the church would have to change a lot more before I could feel that it would make me a better person. I don't like the negative things it can do to some people.
I probably won't read replies to this thread for a while, maybe a long while, because I can mostly anticipate them, and I know they won't be edifying. Nothing here, really, has ever "edified" me. Nothing at all.
Well, your posts and interests have often edified and enlightened me Ray. Sad to see you not posting.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself....
Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass....
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy. (Desiderata)
Love it.
Just to add also, that I have a pretty busy life outside of message boards! Family, relatives, bird watching, the garden, reading, housework, husbands accounts, friends. This and boards like it, is just a part of how I spend my free time.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov