Themis wrote:I don't think most know the details much. They are not historians and usually busy doing other things. They are all converts except Joseph, so I think they believed. Self deception really plays an important role even when they may come across information not friendly to the church.
I can't find a link to it, but I remember reading Steve Benson's exit story several years ago on RFM. One thing I found very interesting was the "play-by-play" of his long disucssion with Elders Maxwell and Oaks prior to his apostasy. These were two "intellectual giants" among the brethren and I was amazed at how little they seemed to know about the troubling issues that Benson was raising.
I also remember thinking: "If Ezra Taft Benson and the rest of the apostles are prophets, seers and revelators then why don't they just tell Steve that they have seen Christ themselves and therefore know that He leads the church?"
Themis wrote:I don't think most know the details much. They are not historians and usually busy doing other things. They are all converts except Joseph, so I think they believed. Self deception really plays an important role even when they may come across information not friendly to the church.
I can't find a link to it, but I remember reading Steve Benson's exit story several years ago on RFM. One thing I found very interesting was the "play-by-play" of his long disucssion with Elders Maxwell and Oaks prior to his apostasy. These were two "intellectual giants" among the brethren and I was amazed at how little they seemed to know about the troubling issues that Benson was raising.
I also remember thinking: "If Ezra Taft Benson and the rest of the apostles are prophets, seers and revelators then why don't they just tell Steve that they have seen Christ themselves and therefore know that He leads the church?"
How come an angel hasn't come down to him to set him straight like Alma the Younger. I am sure many church leaders and members were praying for a similar experience.
Themis wrote: How come an angel hasn't come down to him to set him straight like Alma the Younger. I am sure many church leaders and members were praying for a similar experience.
Yeah. If God shows himself to Tobin you would think he would show and talk to the FP and Q12 from time to time
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
i thk that jfs also lied doing those hearings saying polygamy had ceased at the manifesto when he knew it had not- this brought to light by psr d. michael quinn.
in steve benson's discussions with oaks and maxwell , neil said he had an impression at about 7 years old that the Book of Mormon was true-that's it! nothing further in the realm of psr'ing. but neil could turn a phrase! oaks is known to have lied in a phone con with an arizona republic reporter concerning bkp's personal interference in a excommunication case. and his turning himself inside out to justify the hoffman fake salamander letter should quailfy as a perfect 10 in rationalizing, but does not count as prophesying!!
also if lying for the lord counted as prophesying all 15 would qualify!
son of Ishmael wrote: Yeah. If God shows himself to Tobin you would think he would show and talk to the FP and Q12 from time to time
That's what I was thinking. Apparently God goes to great lengths to reveal himself to the prophet Tobin but does nothing for the appointed prophets.
But we know that Tobin was seeing things in his mind -- natural chemicals firing off causing all kinds of amazing things to be seen and felt. It happens all the time to people around the world. But Tobin is stupid enough to actually think he saw the God of the Bible. But the God of the Bible is not real. He is make believe.
Tobin's testimony of seeing God is a joke as is Joseph Smith's and his translations of Facsimile No. 3. Tobin's testimony and the Explanations of the above belong in the trash can.
Themis wrote: How come an angel hasn't come down to him to set him straight like Alma the Younger. I am sure many church leaders and members were praying for a similar experience.
Yeah. If God shows himself to Tobin you would think he would show and talk to the FP and Q12 from time to time
Here is what I imagine whyme would say to that:
Oh there all you Korihors go again asking for signs. Consider yourselves fortunate that you can still speak!