Shameful MDD thread

[_moksha]

There is nothing in Mormon doctrine or culture that justifies that kind of callousness.

Right on Harmony. It would be sad if people blamed Mormon Prophesy for all this horrible death and destruction. Can't see why some folks at MD&D would invite the fear and loathing of Mormons, that such a claim of a destructive prophesy would entail. Even if an entire stadium of the faithful at BYU convened to shake their boots at Obama and the Eastern seacoast, they should keep this hex to themselves.

[_Franktalk]

Right on Harmony. It would be sad if people blamed Mormon Prophesy for all this horrible death and destruction. Can't see why some folks at MD&D would invite the fear and loathing of Mormons, that such a claim of a destructive prophesy would entail. Even if an entire stadium of the faithful at BYU convened to shake their boots at Obama and the Eastern seacoast, they should keep this hex to themselves.

Just because a group of people get together and all agree on something does not make it so. Within their little world they have built an image of something which does not exist. We all have to be careful not to follow that path. The world is strong and the flesh is weak. To curse someone in the name of God is not a good idea. God does not like it when people try that stuff.

[_Blixa]

Right on Harmony. It would be sad if people blamed Mormon Prophesy for all this horrible death and destruction. Can't see why some folks at MD&D would invite the fear and loathing of Mormons, that such a claim of a destructive prophesy would entail. Even if an entire stadium of the faithful at BYU convened to shake their boots at Obama and the Eastern seacoast, they should keep this hex to themselves.

Just because a group of people get together and all agree on something does not make it so. Within their little world they have built an image of something which does not exist. We all have to be careful not to follow that path. The world is strong and the flesh is weak. To curse someone in the name of God is not a good idea. God does not like it when people try that stuff.

I agree. To use God to underwrite one's own petty bigotry and biases is despicable.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another..." Is that so hard to remember?

[_Bob Loblaw]

Blixa, I'm so happy you made it through relatively unscathed. My thoughts and prayers are with you, your students, and everyone else who is suffering through this.

[_cwald]

I served in the New York New York mission. Even though I don't care much for the church anymore, I still have a soft spot people of New York City . The MDD thread made me ill.

[_Res Ipsa]

Maybe I'm just getting jaded in my old age, but I finally got around to reading the thread, and didn't think it was shameful. It was, well, what humans do when disasters happen.

Ever since the LDS church was founded, Mormons have believed that Christ's return is imminent. (Except Packer throwing on the brakes a little recently.) They have all kinds of prophecies of natural disasters that will happen in conjunction with the return. When I was growing up in the church, we speculated all the time about signs of the end times. I think it's entirely understandable that, when major events occur, Mormons try to fit those events into prophecies of the end times.

I didn't see callousness towards the victims of the storms. I saw people praying for them and hoping people in harms way would be kept safe. I saw expressions of sadness as the death toll mounted.

I didn't see statements that the victims were wicked or deserved punishment. The atheist comment was part of an expressed hope that, if enough people prayed, god would turn the storm out to sea. I thought the poster was expressing dismay that his/her friends in harms way were atheists who don't believe in prayer. As an atheist myself, I didn't feel slighted by the comment in the slightest.

Yes, there were people minimizing the danger. I'm a kind of storm junkie myself, and I am glued to Jeff Master's blog during big storm events. The weather geeks there spend pages and pages arguing over whether a particular storm is underhyped or overhyped. What I saw at MDD was pretty mild compared to what I was reading the day of the storm.

If you are LDS, I don't know how you get around the conclusion that the storm was god's will. God is all powerful. God could have turned the storm out to sea. God chose not to. Ergo, the storm hitting the eastern seaboard was god's will. That's an intrinsic aspect of Mormonism (or any other theism with an all powerful, all knowing, god). Heck, I heard the same thing at my LDS sister's funeral -- she died because it was god's will. I see no difference between the well-intentioned folks trying to give me comfort and saying it was god's will that the storm killed all those people.

So, I don't see anything callous about both praying for the safety of folks in harms way and acknowledging that, if people are injured or killed and their homes destroyed, that was the will of god. That's just humans trying to do their best to come to grips with the problem of evil -- something that religion has struggled with for centuries.

(I'll agree that the "snookie" comment was a little callous, but it certainly was not representative of the thread as a whole. )

[_DrW]

How about elder Holland in general conference one month after the Japanese tsunami disaster? Here are his words (my emphasis):

Brothers and sisters, in general conference we offer our testimonies in conjunction with other testimonies that will come, because one way or another God will have His voice heard. “I sent you out to testify and warn the people,” the Lord has said to His prophets.15

“[And] after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, ... of thunderings, ... lightnings, and ... tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds. ...

This is from one of the twelve apostles, one month after the japanese earthquake and associated tsunami, where thousands of people perished.

I have never used the word "a$$hole" on this or any other board before. So I hope folks here will excuse me just this one time. But Elder Jeffrey Holland is an a$$ho!e, pure and simple. I have considered him as a premier example of such for as long as I have known about him. He is the Mormon gift that just keeps on giving to those who disapprove of LDS Church leadership in general.

Overall, in their response to this latest natural disaster, the LDS Church as represented by the folks on MDD and certainly Mitt Romney, have not done themselves any favors. I hope that when things have settled down, that their behavior in these days is not simply forgotten.

A close relative works for the Church and often helps, in some capacity, with emergency relief responses. I am sure that the folks he works with, as well as the local leaders in the affected areas, are doing a good job in seeing to the immediate needs of the members. That is something that Mormons on the ground generally do very well.

Too bad that the folks on MDD behaved as they did in this situation. Too bad that Jeffrey Holland behaves as he does pretty much every chance he gets.

The combination of weather systems with sufficient energy to cause the devastation experienced along the Eastern seaboard was considered an unlikely worst case scenario - until it happened. Same with the loss of a nuclear power plant in Japan from a tsunami and and the Christmas 2004 tsunami in Banda Aceh.

What are religionists, LDS Church leaders or others, trying to accomplish when they attribute these natural disasters and the resulting death and destruction to the God for whom they claim to speak?

In their twisted logic, do they think that they accrue credibility or deference when they brag about how powerful their God is and how much death and destruction he can rain down if humans don't do what the religionists say that their God tells them to do?
___________

Blixa,

Sorry for your personal loss. Hope things are otherwise starting too work themselves out for you and your colleagues and students.

[_lulu]

So, I don't see anything callous about both praying for the safety of folks in harms way and acknowledging that, if people are injured or killed and their homes destroyed, that was the will of god. That's just humans trying to do their best to come to grips with the problem of evil -- something that religion has struggled with for centuries.

No.

D&C 88

88 And after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.
89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.

90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.

Emphasis in Zakuska.

Then, lest we miss the point, Zakuska further posts:

President Hinkley - If Ye are prepared Ye shall not fear. (General Conference 2005)

Quote

In the year A.D. 79 the great city of Pompeii was destroyed when Mount Vesuvius erupted.

Chicago was ravaged by a terrible fire. Tidal waves have swamped areas of Hawaii. The San Francisco earthquake in 1906 ruined the city and took some 3,000 lives. The hurricane that hit Galveston, Texas, in 1900 killed 8,000. And more recently, as you know, has been the terrible tsunami of Southeast Asia, where thousands of lives were lost and where relief efforts are still needed.

How portentous are the words of revelation found in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants concerning the calamities that should befall after the testimonies of the elders. The Lord says:
“For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
“And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
“And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:89–91).

How interesting are descriptions of the tsunami and the recent hurricanes in terms of the language of this revelation, which says, “The voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.”

Man’s inhumanity to man expressed in past and present conflict has and continues to bring unspeakable suffering. In the Darfur region of Sudan, tens of thousands have been killed and well over a million have been left homeless.

What we have experienced in the past was all foretold, and the end is not yet. Just as there have been calamities in the past, we expect more in the future. What do we do?

Emphasis in Zakuska.

To provide further context for Pres. Hinckley's statement his sermon contintues:

Someone has said it was not raining when Noah built the ark. But he built it, and the rains came.

The Lord has said, “If ye are prepared ye shall not fear” (D&C 38:30).

The primary preparation is also set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants, wherein it says, “Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come” (D&C 87:8).

We sing the song:
When the earth begins to tremble,
Bid our fearful thoughts be still;
When thy judgments spread destruction,
Keep us safe on Zion’s hill.

We can so live that we can call upon the Lord for His protection and guidance. This is a first priority. We cannot expect His help if we are unwilling to keep His commandments. We in this Church have evidence enough of the penalties of disobedience in the examples of both the Jaredite and the Nephite nations. Each went from glory to utter destruction because of wickedness.

Emphasis mine.

Zakuska parting shot in a following post:

But God takes out the Unjust with Fire and Brimstone. At least according to the Bible.

That's God zapping the wicked, jaded or not.

[_Res Ipsa]

lulu,

I see your point, but to get there you had to (1) ignore stuff Z actually posted in the thread and (2) insert and highlight stuff Z didn't post to the thread.

Here's the OP:

This one kind of has me scratching my head and praying for all those who find themselves in the path of this perfect storm.

It's followed by a link to the FairWiki entry to a discussion of a prophecy of the destruction of New York, Boston and Albany.

The next is some trying to fit the hurricane into the parameters of the prophecy:

Well let's see...

Boston by a flood. There's already surge flooding all up and down the coast. Since much of NY is built on the water. Shifting sands could qualify as earth quake.

Albany by a fire.

There's also this:

This storm has already killed 65 in the Caribbean.

And more trying to fit current events into prophecy:

This also coincided with an earth quake in Oregon.. And a Tsunami warning in Hawaii over the week end.

Then Z quotes from Hinckley -- only from the parts that discuss prophecies of end time calamities. in my opinion, if s/he wanted to quote a different part of HInckley's speech, s/he would have quoted from it. The additional material may provide context for understanding Hinckley, but it doesn't provide context for Z's post.

I really have no idea what the fire and brimstone comment was about. Clearly, the hurricane is not fire and brimstone, so I have no idea what s/he is referring to.

The last two posts are another death toll (with sad face) and connections between nuclear bombs and earthquakes.

in my opinion, reading Z's entire chain of posts in context (and not adding stuff not posted), I see speculation about end times prophecies and sympathy for storm victims. I don't see Z saying that the storm was god's punishment of the wicked.

[_lulu]

I really have no idea what the fire and brimstone comment was about.

Yeah, that one is a puzzler, I don't know, maybe something about Zakuska thinking God will justly destroy the wicked?

lulu - from the disaster zone