Every single Nephite but ONE?

[_Bazooka]

Why shouldn't the truth claims of the Book of Mormon be self-evident?

Because without spiritual strength and confirmation from testimony outside the facts a simple belief or even conviction that the Book of Mormon is a true account is useless. In fact it is dangerous and damning. It would lead to a spate of baptisms of people uncommitted to the faith.

The Book of Mormon says that when the Book of Mormon (and the Bible) are proven then you can expect the judgements of God to be poured out on the earth for its continued rejection.

Nehor, member activity is running globally at 30%.
How much more uncommitment to the faith could there be?

[_Runtu]

Because without spiritual strength and confirmation from testimony outside the facts a simple belief or even conviction that the Book of Mormon is a true account is useless. In fact it is dangerous and damning. It would lead to a spate of baptisms of people uncommitted to the faith.

How would this be different than current practice? Most baptisms in my mission were those who had no spiritual conviction of anything LDS and often didn't even realize they had joined a church, let alone which one.

The Book of Mormon says that when the Book of Mormon (and the Bible) are proven then you can expect the judgements of God to be poured out on the earth for its continued rejection.

I don't have a problem with belief requiring faith, but I do have a problem with a god who makes something look every bit like a hoax and then still expects us to believe in it.

[Guest]

I never stated that the truth claims should be self-evident. I also do not claim to have hard facts that could convince anyone. Oh, there is evidence for it but not evidence that will convince everyone.

Hello Mr. The Nehor,

Ok.

You concede the Book of Mormon isn't self-evidentially the truth.

You concede you have no hard facts ref the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

I appreicate the honesty.

What evidences exists that confirm its truthfulness?

- Doc

[_Bazooka]

Because without spiritual strength and confirmation from testimony outside the facts a simple belief or even conviction that the Book of Mormon is a true account is useless. In fact it is dangerous and damning. It would lead to a spate of baptisms of people uncommitted to the faith.

How would this be different than current practice? Most baptisms in my mission were those who had no spiritual conviction of anything LDS and often didn't even realize they had joined a church, let alone which one.

The Book of Mormon says that when the Book of Mormon (and the Bible) are proven then you can expect the judgements of God to be poured out on the earth for its continued rejection.

I don't have a problem with belief requiring faith, but I do have a problem with a god who makes something look every bit like a hoax and then still expects us to believe in it.

What else could God have done to make it look more like a hoax than it already does?
- have Nephi look up Laban's address on Google Earth?
- have the Jaredites settle the moon using wooden spaceships?

[_Darth J]

After you have removed this beam from your own eye, we can get back to our discussion of the complete lack of evidence for any of the Book of Mormon civilizations ever actually existing, thus giving some context to your calling stupid all and sundry who fail to believe that Joseph Smith's most famous novel represents actual history.

That is not what we were discussing though. I do not believe that everyone who disbelieves the Book of Mormon is stupid. I know many smart people who doubt or outright disbelieve. I do believe it is profoundly stupid to mock it while being wrong about the thing you mock. I also believe it is even more shockingly stupid to defend the former stupidity.

This also isn't evidence of the Book of Mormon being discussed. Being incredulous about something is not evidence. Sadly pretty much all this board has ever had is incredulity laced with adolescent sarcasm so I guess you have to work with what you have. I guess dealing with evidence would require hard things like actually reading primary sources and the even more difficult task for many her of being able to understand it if they would actually read it.

"You're too lazy to read primary sources," said a member of a church that does not use the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon.

Actually, The Nehor, we are indeed discussing Book of Mormon evidence. The ludicrous implausibility of the down-to-the-last man genocide of not just one, but two, vast civilizations within walking distance of each other does not offer a particularly compelling reason to believe that the Book of Mormon represents actual history (as it purports to do).

You're also nitpicking over irrelevant distinctions about the continuity, as angry fanboys are wont to do. The Jaredites did in fact get wiped out to the last man. Ether did not make it long enough to meet any of the refugees from Jerusalem, notwithstanding Ether witnessing the epic battle between millions that reached the laughably unbelievable climax of the Jaredite leader having a duel to the death against his opposite number. Only Coriantumr survived to meet the Mulekites.

Similarly, whether Moroni's former brothers in arms deserted, joined the Lamanites, or whatever, it doesn't make any difference to the Book of Mormon imitating itself by replaying the "last of his kind" trope we saw with the Jaredites. You're so desperate to find something to gainsay skeptics of your cherished beliefs that you're contradicting the text by speculating that other Nephites technically survived, so Moroni was not technically the very last one, so neener-neener. But that isn't what Joseph Smith has Moroni say. The character of Moroni is explicit that he is the only Nephite left:

Mormon 8

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

4 Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.

5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

So I guess I should just pat you on the head for trying. Good job.

You'll excuse me if I am not bothered by attempted condescension by an angry Mormon fanboy who wears sacred Masonic underwear to protect him from evil spirits tempting him to drink a cup of coffee.

[_The Nehor]

You concede you have no hard facts ref the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Nope. I said there is no universally convincing evidence (that could convince anyone and everyone). There is no objective standard of proof that will convince everyone. I am convinced and I know many others that also are. I am not going to list evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as if this is a novel idea to you and you are somehow interested in learning more. You are ignorant but not that ignorant.

"You're too lazy to read primary sources," said a member of a church that does not use the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon.

Actually, The Nehor, we are indeed discussing Book of Mormon evidence. The ludicrous implausibility of the down-to-the-last man genocide of not just one, but two, vast civilizations within walking distance of each other does not offer a particularly compelling reason to believe that the Book of Mormon represents actual history (as it purports to do).

You're also nitpicking over irrelevant distinctions about the continuity, as angry fanboys are wont to do. The Jaredites did in fact get wiped out to the last man. Ether did not make it long enough to meet any of the refugees from Jerusalem, notwithstanding Ether witnessing the epic battle between millions that reached the laughably unbelievable climax of the Jaredite leader having a duel to the death against his opposite number. Only Coriantumr survived to meet the Mulekites.

Similarly, whether Moroni's former brothers in arms deserted, joined the Lamanites, or whatever, it doesn't make any difference to the Book of Mormon imitating itself by replaying the "last of his kind" trope we saw with the Jaredites. You're so desperate to find something to gainsay skeptics of your cherished beliefs that you're contradicting the text by speculating that other Nephites technically survived, so Moroni was not technically the very last one, so neener-neener. But that isn't what Joseph Smith has Moroni say. The character of Moroni is explicit that he is the only Nephite left:

I actually prefer the 1830 version. It is the copy I read at night. I understand why others do not. There were some errors going from the manuscript to the typesetter and the lack of verses makes it hard to follow.

As to the rest, of course Moroni said he was the last Nephite. He was. Nephite is not an ethnic designation. It is a political one. The rest died or defected.

Nitpicking over distinctions is what historians do. They are only irrelevant because they reveal you as a jackass.

"I wasn't WRONG!!!!! The distinction showing I was wrong is irrelevant!!!!"

Then you reiterate your silly "down to the last man" scenario we just disproved. Uh-huh.

Of course there is symmetry between the two accounts. Both are the story of destroyed nations written by survivors. If you said that I would never have posted. Of course the OP was not about that and the goal posts have been moved. The OP was about how ridiculous it was that only one person survived. The OP is wrong.

And you're flopping like a dead fish trying to distract from that.

What else could God have done to make it look more like a hoax than it already does?
- have Nephi look up Laban's address on Google Earth?
- have the Jaredites settle the moon using wooden spaceships?

If it is so easy to disprove why is everyone defending the OP trying to do it with a pack of lies born of ignorance? Shouldn't they be shunned as an embarrassing supporter discrediting your valiant effort instead of defended?

What a strangely loyal pack-mentality we have here that defends ignorance....almost as if everyone is loyal only because they are worried they may one day need their dim-witted fellows to defend their own ignorant mistakes? Makes one think.

Well, my work here is done. If Shades does not delete my username I may come back in another couple of years to see how you guys are doing. Bye.

[Guest]

As to the rest, of course Moroni said he was the last Nephite. He was. Nephite is not an ethnic designation. It is a political one. The rest died or defected.

Right. Just like the OP was suggesting. "In the last great battle there was only one survivor. He lived long enough to hide the plates. No mention of The Three Nephites helping him. Every other Nephite was killed. No deserters, no conscientious objectors, no one hid in the hills or ran away."

Nitpicking over distinctions is what historians do. They are only irrelevant because they reveal you as a jackass.

Yep. Those guys who run the comic book store I go to, and who explained Moon Knight's continuity to me? They're historians.

"I wasn't WRONG!!!!! The distinction showing I was wrong is irrelevant!!!!"

Then you reiterate your silly "down to the last man" scenario we just disproved. Uh-huh.

What you do, The Nehor, is copy and paste the part of the Book of Mormon that identifies anyone other than Coriantumr or Moroni as a survivor from his respective civilization.

Of course there is symmetry between the two accounts.

Both are the story of destroyed nations written by survivors. If you said that I would never have posted.

And I think it just stands to reason that if one vast, advanced civilization that had existed for centuries ended in a genocidal battle of millions so that only one person ultimately survived, there is no reason why it could not happen twice in two areas within walking distance of each other. If you have one ludicrously implausible event happen in your narrative, why not have it happen again?

Of course the OP was not about that and the goal posts have been moved. The OP was about how ridiculous it was that only one person survived. The OP is wrong.

And you're flopping like a dead fish trying to distract from that.

Hey, I wonder what your favorite quasi-religious corporation says about whether there was only one survivor from each of these epic, genocidal battles?

Guide to the Scriptures: Coriantumr

In the Book of Mormon, a king of the Jaredites and the last survivor of the Jaredite nation.

Mark E. Petersen, October 1978 Ensign

Moroni came back from the dead, a resurrected man!

He had lived in America some fifteen hundred years ago and was the sole survivor of his people in a series of tragic battles which took many lives.

He had witnessed the destruction of his whole nation, including his own family. In bitter vengeance their enemies had vowed their complete annihilation, and now this threat was accomplished.

Just so we're clear, is your fanboy wrath directed against the plain meaning of the words on the pages of the Book of Mormon? Or is your fanboy wrath directed at the observation that the Book of Mormon narrative is hopelessly improbable?

Also, The Nehor, since I am flopping like a fish and moving the goalposts and whatever other metaphors I am doing, would you mind copying and pasting where I ever said that there were no Nephite deserters or traitors according to the narrative? Thanks in advance.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[quote="The Nehor] I am not going to list evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as if this is a novel idea to you and you are somehow interested in learning more. You are ignorant but not that ignorant.[/quote]

Ok. So, you're here to simply complain about and to critics then. You essentially have nothing else to offer the forum. That's unfortunate.

- Doc

[_Darth J]

I am not going to list evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon

Okay, then how about one? Can you narrow it down to your favorite one of the many Nephite artifacts that have been discovered?

[_Bazooka]

If it is so easy to disprove why is everyone defending the OP trying to do it with a pack of lies born of ignorance? Shouldn't they be shunned as an embarrassing supporter discrediting your valiant effort instead of defended?

What do you mean 'if'?
Given Mormonism's failure to gain traction on growth above or beyond the natural membership growth from existing families producing children born into the Church; unmitigated failure to arrest the retention problem; and inability to get any serious endeavour to take the Book of Mormon's historicity seriously; I'd say for more than 99% of the people coming into contact with it, the Book of Mormon has definitely been proven untrue.