At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

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_Nightlion
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Nightlion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Image

- Doc

This sort of God hate ought to stop. It is so profoundly shallow. Sure, a MEME is only slightly more intellectual than a bumper sticker, but please. Hell in Mormonism is simple disappointment. Like: 'OH S__T there really is a God.....oops!' And then spend all the time you like in telestial GLORY!

Where else are you gonna be? Eh? You do not have an eternal right to harass people. We do not believe any such things as where people are continually burning but never consumed. That's just medieval horse pucky. A mix of Catholicism with paganism.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Nightlion
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Nightlion »

Blixa wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
*Ducks and runs away, hoping Blixa isn't throwing something at the screen while swearing at me*


Haha! No worries, no apologies. I stand by my assessment in that earlier thread, though ;)


Reading both you and Mr Stak on that old thread had me shrinking back down my unlearned worm hole. Like seeing you both back. I drive around Salt Lake all the time and never fail to think of you passing Ruby Snap Cookies. And, oh my gosh, reading Mr Stak again I am nearly goose pimpled to think he honored my Apocalrock Visitor Center as its first visitor so many years ago.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Nightlion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Image

- Doc

This sort of God hate ought to stop. It is so profoundly shallow. Sure, a MEME is only slightly more intellectual than a bumper sticker, but please. Hell in Mormonism is simple disappointment. Like: 'OH S__T there really is a God.....oops!' And then spend all the time you like in telestial GLORY!
Where else are you gonna be? Eh? You do not have an eternal right to harass people. We do not believe any such things as where people are continually burning but never consumed. That's just medieval horse pucky. A mix of Catholicism with paganism.


Methinks you doth protesteth too much.

Also, Ruby Snaps is the shhiiiiiiizzzzniiiiizle.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_canpakes
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _canpakes »

Nightlion wrote:God has had it up to here with this world.

An eternity preceded it and an eternity follows it, but in between it only took God a few thousand years to lose all patience with a world running a rigged game that he himself set up?
_Philo Sofee
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

canpakes wrote:
Nightlion wrote:God has had it up to here with this world.

An eternity preceded it and an eternity follows it, but in between it only took God a few thousand years to lose all patience with a world running a rigged game that he himself set up?


Response of the day! Theology is so obviously phony when applying just a smidgin of thought to what is being proposed, except by those making the proposals.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_krose
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _krose »

Nightlion wrote:This sort of God hate ought to stop. It is so profoundly shallow. Sure, a MEME is only slightly more intellectual than a bumper sticker, but please. Hell in Mormonism is simple disappointment. Like: 'OH S__T there really is a God.....oops!' And then spend all the time you like in telestial GLORY!
Where else are you gonna be? Eh? You do not have an eternal right to harass people. We do not believe any such things as where people are continually burning but never consumed. That's just medieval horse pucky. A mix of Catholicism with paganism.

I assume the meme is aimed squarely at the religions that actually DO believe in a lake-of-fire kind of hell, which (to give them a bit of due credit) is not the Mormons.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Maksutov
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Maksutov »

canpakes wrote:
Nightlion wrote:God has had it up to here with this world.

An eternity preceded it and an eternity follows it, but in between it only took God a few thousand years to lose all patience with a world running a rigged game that he himself set up?


You think too much. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Analytics
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Analytics »

Philo Sofee wrote:At Last! A Mormon Scholar “Takes On” the (New) Atheists

O.K., this is cool. Hyrum Lewis, now at BYU-I, has written a sparkling new book “There IS A God”, CFI, 2017.


The first thing I thought of was “Yeah, but which one is real?” The title is quite wrong if history is our guide, and he is, after all, an historian. It should read “There Are Multitudinous Gods, But Ours is the Correct One,” or something along those lines. But that opens up dozens of cans of worms this author would rather ignore or disregard. But why? Aren’t Gods supposed to be the most important thing in the universe? Are there problems with many gods instead of just one? I should say so! (Matt McCormick, "Atheism The Case Against Christ," Prometheus Books, 2012, Chapter 10 "500 Dead Gods and the Problem of Other Religions," shows the vast majority, the VAST... majority... of Gods are invented by humans, upping the probability beyond any possible reasonable doubt that yours is just an invention also)


This book attempts to refute atheism.


He has written a pretty darn good book actually. I enjoyed reading it. That being aside, in this entirely too brief a review, I can only point to a few things that mar the book, and one of those things is fundamentally, on the ground level, absolutely fatal against his claims against atheism, which I shall get to.

In refuting “atheism,” Professor Lewis simply conflates the “New Atheism” of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchins with atheism itself. These men are not atheism, and in fact, may not be even representative of atheism actually. They are atheists each with his own philosophy and views on myriads of issues, not necessarily agreeing with each other either. Professor Lewis does not get off as easily as he wishes by merely showing a few arguments of Dawkins or Harris, et al., are shallow, stupid, or wrong....


Does he even do that? Lewis's first chapter is entitled, "The Argument From Evil." That alone should tip off the reader that the book isn't focused on responding to "new atheism"--new atheists don't talk about abstract philosophy like that--they don't waste their time trying to refute Aquinas. New atheism isn't driven by old school philosophical arguments about God.

More than anything else, new atheism can be defined as a scientific approach to truth that rejects the claim that science and religion are or even could be two distinct spheres of knowledge. Their basic claim is that all matter and energy--in other words, everything in the observable universe--is, in principle, within the purview of science. According to new atheists, we now know enough about the natural world to see that basically all conceptions of God don't fit within it. Most importantly, they take the philosophical and ethical position that in the current high-stakes world we live in, these issues and questions are too important for scientists to politely, condescendingly, and insincerely say that science doesn't have an opinion on religious truth claims.

In a sense Lewis engages with New Atheism because according to Lewis, reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it are actually scientific endeavors--although he doesn't come right out and say it this way, he thinks Mormonism is a scientific discipline. Thus if a scientist takes the tools of science and rigorously applies them to religion, Mormonism is the inevitable result. Thus, it seems that Lewis concedes the New Atheists' most basic point: religious claims are in fact subject to scientific scrutiny.

Science, properly conceived, understands that beliefs are legitimized by subjecting them to testing (attempts at falsification). Science is not about going out and finding pure truth; it is about creating theories based on observation and holding them up to critical examination. Einstein found Newton’s theory wanting and developed a new, more adequate one that we call general relativity. Astronomers tested the theory’s core prediction during an eclipse and found that it came to pass. This corroborated the theory and made it an improvement over Newton’s.

This is precisely what those with testimonies do with the gospel.

Lewis, Hyrum. There is a God: How to Respond to Atheism in the Last Days (Kindle Locations 1146-1150). Cedar Fort, Inc.. Kindle Edition. emphasis added


But really, his biggest problem with new atheists is their attitude. He thinks they are arrogant, rude, and mean. I'll conceded the arrogant part, although they aren't any more arrogant than, say, every Mormon apostle.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Analytics
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Analytics »

Philo Sofee wrote:Just one more nit pick before I give you the fatal problem of Lewis’s attempt against atheism. (I told you this review was far too short, though many other problems exist in Lewis’s analysis and book). Lewis, literally on the last page, says “Atheists can’t refute the true God of our worship, so they invent a false deity who should show off to unbelievers and be discoverable as scientific hypothesis. In that sense, atheists are right – God as they conceive of Him is a delusion. [a cutesy jab at Dawkins whom he snipes and carps about constantly] But when it comes to the real God, atheists haven’t offered persuasive arguments against his existence.” (p. 154)


Dawkins is a true Prophet.

Richard Dawkins wrote:This is as good a moment as any to forestall an inevitable retort to the book, one that would otherwise— as sure as night follows day— turn up in a review: ‘The God that Dawkins doesn’t believe in is a God that I don’t believe in either. I don’t believe in an old man in the sky with a long white beard.’ That old man is an irrelevant distraction and his beard is as tedious as it is long. Indeed, the distraction is worse than irrelevant. Its very silliness is calculated to distract attention from the fact that what the speaker really believes is not a whole lot less silly. I know you don’t believe in an old bearded man sitting on a cloud, so let’s not waste any more time on that. I am not attacking any particular version of God or gods. I am attacking God, all gods, anything and everything supernatural, wherever and whenever they have been or will be invented.

Dawkins, Richard. The God Delusion (p. 57). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


When you look at it that way, Mormonism might see a way to dodge a bullet, but by dodging that bullet it walks into a trap. If the Mormon says, "We reject supernaturalism too! Elohim isn't supernatural in a Dawkinsian way--rather, he is a physical, biological being who exists within the universe--His powers aren't supernatural--they are an application of natural laws by an inconceivably advanced life form. Mormonism is about understanding all natural laws--there is no supernaturalism." If Mormons take that approach, then it opens itself up to full scientific scrutiny. Let's do a double-blind, placebo controlled test on how well priesthood blessings cure the sick, shall we?
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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Re: At Last! A Mormon Scholar Takes on Atheism

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Analytics wrote:When you look at it that way, Mormonism might see a way to dodge a bullet, but by dodging that bullet it walks into a trap. If the Mormon says, "We reject supernaturalism too! Elohim isn't supernatural in a Dawkinsian way--rather, he is a physical, biological being who exists within the universe--His powers aren't supernatural--they are an application of natural laws by an inconceivably advanced life form. Mormonism is about understanding all natural laws--there is no supernaturalism." If Mormons take that approach, then it opens itself up to full scientific scrutiny. Let's do a double-blind, placebo controlled test on how well priesthood blessings cure the sick, shall we?


I think it also opens itself up to the question of why we would bother to worship such a being? If God isn't fundamentally different than we are and does not operate using any superduper powers not available to us, eventually, why are we worshiping him?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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