All or Nothing Mentality

[_Kishkumen]

My response to the ‘throwing out baby with bath water’ accusation is that there was never any baby — just a lot of dirty, murky water.

In my own case, I dumped Mormonism because I had come to the conclusion that there was nothing out there that cared, listened to prayers, or helpfully arranged things for us.

When I read this, I think, well, yes, for you, and that is OK. There is room in this world for symbolic systems that stimulate and provide some framework for our search for meaning. Not everyone is going to respond to the same stimuli or the same system. If you saw nothing of value in Mormonism, then, sure, you would be highly motivated to move on from it. Some people see a great deal of value in it. I am not saying one side of this is right and the other is wrong. I am saying to each her or his own, really. I am not a huge fan of Mormonism as it is commonly understood and practiced, but I can see how some find meaning and a life's path in it. Certainly I would not criticize anyone for choosing against it.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

When other Christians ask me why I thew out the baby with the bathwater upon rejecting Mormonism, I ask them to consider a similar situation.

Suppose you find out that Jesus was not the Christ. Either he was just a man, or else he never existed all. Regardless, he was never your Lord, God, and Savior. The New Testament is a hoax, Christianity is a fraud.

Would you revert to Judaism? Would you still believe in Abraham and Moses and the rest of the Old Testament? After all, whether Jesus is Lord has no bearing on any of that. If you believed in them before finding out the "truth" about Jesus, why should that change?

Most Christians tend to admit that they probably wouldn't "revert" to Judaism, because that's not how their faith is structured. They are Christians first and foremost, and everything else stems from that. They didn't start out believing in the Old Testament, and then decide that Jesus was the most likely Messiah that the old patriarchs foretold. They started with the belief in Jesus and only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did. Without his endorsement the Old Testament suddenly looks kind of far-fetched.

I was the same way as a Mormon. It starts and ends with Joseph Smith. I never had a foundation in Christianity or Judaism or even theism. I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

So once I realized Mormonism was a fraud I had no reason to believe in anything. I was starting over with a clean slate. Maybe some people considering the question of gods, angels, and demons from the perspective of an educated adult find reasons to believe in their existence, but I wasn't one of them.

Great post!

- Doc

[_krose]

My response to the ‘throwing out baby with bath water’ accusation is that there was never any baby — just a lot of dirty, murky water.

In my own case, I dumped Mormonism because I had come to the conclusion that there was nothing out there that cared, listened to prayers, or helpfully arranged things for us.

When I read this, I think, well, yes, for you, and that is OK. There is room in this world for symbolic systems that stimulate and provide some framework for our search for meaning. Not everyone is going to respond to the same stimuli or the same system. If you saw nothing of value in Mormonism, then, sure, you would be highly motivated to move on from it. Some people see a great deal of value in it. I am not saying one side of this is right and the other is wrong. I am saying to each her or his own, really. I am not a huge fan of Mormonism as it is commonly understood and practiced, but I can see how some find meaning and a life's path in it. Certainly I would not criticize anyone for choosing against it.

There is nothing here with which I disagree. I hope my comment, about losing god belief first, didn’t convey a message of disdain for those who still believe. It was not intended that way.

[_Amore]

I like this thread. And I believe strongly that so many issues would be resolved if people would be aware of and correct cognitive distortions.

I’m by no means perfect at it, I still struggle. But I’ve come a long way & just being aware of polarized illogical beliefs like “you’re either on the Lord’s side or you’re not” & “the church is either true or not” has helped me through my faith crisis, without crashing & burning. It’s helped me not give up on my marriage and other relationships. I take the best & leave the rest - which before I didn’t even think was an option.

Sigh... I need to keep it in mind when I feel like I don’t belong with ex-Mormon Atheists, but I don’t fit in with TBMs either - all in the Mormonest part of UT.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I like this thread. And I believe strongly that so many issues would be resolved if people would be aware of and correct cognitive distortions.

I’m by no means perfect at it, I still struggle. But I’ve come a long way & just being aware of polarized illogical beliefs like “you’re either on the Lord’s side or you’re not” & “the church is either true or not” has helped me through my faith crisis, without crashing & burning. It’s helped me not give up on my marriage and other relationships. I take the best & leave the rest - which before I didn’t even think was an option.

Sigh... I need to keep it in mind when I feel like I don’t belong with ex-Mormon Atheists, but I don’t fit in with TBMs either - all in the Mormonest part of Utah.

I lived in that Mormonest part of Utah for 7 years. It’s not an easy place to live. NC is a lot easier place to be a NOM. Being able to accept the good parts of the Church and simply walk away from the bad parts has allowed me to receive very needed community support for my son during my divorce, as well as support for my disabled parents who moved in with me last year.

I feel for you experiencing the NOM or middle way part of Mormonism in Utah. It’s a very difficult area to maneuver in.

[_Amore]

I lived in that Mormonest part of Utah for 7 years. It’s not an easy place to live. North Carolina is a lot easier place to be a NOM. Being able to accept the good parts of the Church and simply walk away from the bad parts has allowed me to receive very needed community support for my son during my divorce, as well as support for my disabled parents who moved in with me last year.

I feel for you experiencing the NOM or middle way part of Mormonism in Utah. It’s a very difficult area to maneuver in.

Thanks, Jesse. I appreciate your understanding and empathy. I recently went to CA (where I grew up) & in some ways, I did feel like it’d be easier to take the middle way, than it is in UT. UT is unique.

Bless your heart for taking care of your parents while being a single mom. I hope you find plenty of support.

There are some good meet-up groups that I may look into again.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I lived in that Mormonest part of Utah for 7 years. It’s not an easy place to live. North Carolina is a lot easier place to be a NOM. Being able to accept the good parts of the Church and simply walk away from the bad parts has allowed me to receive very needed community support for my son during my divorce, as well as support for my disabled parents who moved in with me last year.

I feel for you experiencing the NOM or middle way part of Mormonism in Utah. It’s a very difficult area to maneuver in.

Thanks, Jesse. I appreciate your understanding and empathy. I recently went to CA (where I grew up) & in some ways, I did feel like it’d be easier to take the middle way, than it is in Utah. Utah is unique.

Bless your heart for taking care of your parents while being a single mom. I hope you find plenty of support.

There are some good meet-up groups that I may look into again.

I grew up in CA as well!

[_Meadowchik]

I think that most of the tools I use now were developing throughout a lifetime. It is possible, for example, to develop a strong sense of logic and rationality even when starting with the premise of the True Church. So for me, once that premise was destroyed, my own rationality quickly came to certain conclusions.

To put it the most simply: If god does exist, there's no reason for me to allow another person to stand between God and myself. This has so many ramifications. It does allow for the possibility of God, but results in all religions being speculations at best.

[_Philo Sofee]

It’s really not all that hard. Completely remove god from your life and see what happens. Here’s a hint, nothing happens. You still have to go to work in the morning. You still have Sickness and health. You still have joys and struggles. The only difference is god gets none of the credit and none of the wasted energy. It’s like reverse engineering faith. Put faith in yourself and you’ll be amazed you don’t need faith in god.

It's a great point here! John W. Loftus, one of my very most favorite authors, noted that if all Christians everywhere just quit doing the work of God, and let Him take over, he wonders what would happen? Christianity would blink out in a couple years. If it's God's work, let him do it while we live our lives, what's wrong with that? His own very Christian professor was profoundly shocked by this suggestion and actually agreed with it.

It does give one pause, to be sure.

[_Philo Sofee]

has helped me through my faith crisis, without crashing & burning.

The metaphor here is all skewed. It is not crashing and burning that occurs, it's liberating and enlightening once you realize the useless utility of faith, and begin to recognize probabilistic reality, and go with what evidences may be recurring.