SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

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Don Bradley
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Don Bradley »

Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:15 pm
Even assuming, hypothetically, there is in fact no God, it's ridiculous to assert that evil people somehow "win" the final victory at anything.

Humanity -- including all of its atheists -- has managed to improve upon itself through social healing and evolution since the dawn of recorded history.

To be born today as human number N+1 means increasingly high odds of inheriting the sum benefits of all of humanity's collective learning -- the good, bad and ugly. On balance metrics such as health, lifespan, access to basic needs, educational and socialization opportunities are all becoming more robust and healthy over time. For a species with so much chaos and variability on whatever "good vs evil" spectrum can be objectively defined, I think humans are doing pretty well.

It's all a matter of framing, is it not? Sure, if you insist on solving for the egocentricity of any individual person, then bad outcomes are horrific (and hence the appeal of an all-knowing, personal God). But solve for the perpetuation and durability of the species, and the picture is rather encouraging in the scheme of things.
Dr. Moore,

There's certainly moral progress, as you're describing, across time. But why is such progress valuable?

Here's a story from my Utah History course in college that I'll come back to shortly. In early pioneer Utah, Ute warriors raided a pioneer settlement, killing several of the settlers. When Brigham Young demanded that the Utes turn over the offenders for punishment, the tribe dutifully rounded up and turned in several Utes. But it quickly became apparent that the several men turned over by the tribe, who included elderly and lame tribe members, could not have been the actual offenders.

Back to the question, why is progress valuable? Because it benefits individual human beings in the future. Since human beings are subjective at the individual level rather than at the collective level, the future humankind who will reap the benefits of that progress will reap it one individual at a time, so to speak. Also, human beings aren't interchangeable.

I think it's wonderful that in the future we will have, for instance, much more reliable medicine and medical care. But it doesn't, for me, somehow make for the fact that my little brother Charles died at 25 from combining the wrong medicines. Nor does it make up for that to my parents, to our other siblings, or to anyone who knew the wonderful person Charles was and the great life he was going to live. I can only imagine how much truer this is for those who've had a child murdered.

There is nothing egocentric about valuing individuals as individuals, especially not when realize that "humankind" is a collection of individuals and that human experience necessarily happens at the individual level, making the individual the locus of value. (In other words, what is of value to humanity is only of value because it of value in human experience, and this experience is always experienced at the level of the subjective organism--the individual.) So to devalue individual human beings would be to devalue humanity itself.

Back to the Ute-pioneer story. The Utes had turned over the men it had, not because they were guilty, but because no one particularly liked them and they would not be much missed. They had turned over, however, a number of men equal to the number of pioneer victims. This was no coincidence. Justice, as they understood it, meant, We killed X number of your people; now you get to kill X number of ours. There was nothing particularly individual about this concept of justice. In fact, it was distinctly non-individual. Such conceptions of justice were also common among other groups with tribal styles of organization, such as the Arabs of Muhammad's time. Which style of justice do you find moral? The kind that holds the individual accountable, or the kind that indiscriminately takes its toll on a certain number of non-guilty parties? The shift to justice at an individual level was surely a moral advance. To argue otherwise would be silly.

From a different angle, in the above you are arguing for a giant backward step in human morality--one in which the individual ceases to matter, so long as the group is benefited--never mind that every group is comprised of individuals and that the locus of experience, and therefore of value, is always individual.

I'm not accusing you of actually holding a deficient view of justice, because I find it hard to believe that you really hold this view even if it's hypothetically laid out in your post above.(If your child were killed, would you really think that everything about this would be made right by the fact that there would be future advances in humankind benefiting (only) other children? Is the Holocaust really morally squared for you if there's future progress so that millions of other men, women, and children aren't herded, stripped, enslaved, and gassed? Whatever you post by way of argument here, I'm going to have to be skeptical that you really believe this.)

So if justice can't really be served simply by future human progress, how do we hope for justice for those who have suffered?

Don
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Don Bradley »

Moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:18 am
LaneWolfley • 11 hours ago
Thank you for these interesting observations. Mormonism is a distinct variation of the Universalist tradition, I think. Think about it: even Hitler eventually gets a crown of glory, resurrection and immortality in a Kingdom of unimaginable splendor!

Louis Midgley LaneWolfley • 6 hours ago • edited
Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ is good news even for the likes of Hitler. One can even hope that he has had a profound change and turned around, since that is still possible.
Posting this to say how wonderful it is, Moksha? ;)

You should be!


David Bentley Hart has a wonderful book on universal salvation called That All Shall Be Saved. Among the many, many arguments he employs is that no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty: https://smile.amazon.com/That-All-Shall ... 0300246226

Those who think anyone should be punished forever may be forgetting just how long forever is. Suppose every murderer had to spend 1,000,000 years of penance for each victim whose life they took, and suppose some particularly horrendous murderer killed several million people in concentration camps. One million times millions still comes out to a very finite number--'mere' trillions--a very large number, but a small number compared to the numbers humankind has conceptualized thus far, and still utterly finite. So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Moksha »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am
So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
Mercy.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by IHAQ »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am
Those who think anyone should be punished forever may be forgetting just how long forever is. Suppose every murderer had to spend 1,000,000 years of penance for each victim whose life they took, and suppose some particularly horrendous murderer killed several million people in concentration camps. One million times millions still comes out to a very finite number--'mere' trillions--a very large number, but a small number compared to the numbers humankind has conceptualized thus far, and still utterly finite. So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
I think when an eternal perspective is applied, the hope for justice for victims and perpetrators of acts in this life becomes meaningless. Because if all can become saved and redeemed at some point (becomes time is meaningless in eternity then however long it takes is irrelevant), there is no lasting punishment for the perpetrator of the crimes committed. They will be forgiven. But the lost time on earth or the tainted experience of time on earth that the victims suffered can never be recovered. They don’t get a do over. The rape victim will always have been raped, the murdered will always have had a shortened life experience. The bereaved loved ones will have an eternity knowing the person that raped their daughter will ultimately get away with it, but her life experience will never be recovered.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Don Bradley »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:09 am
I think when an eternal perspective is applied, the hope for justice for victims and perpetrators of acts in this life becomes meaningless. Because if all can become saved and redeemed at some point (becomes time is meaningless in eternity then however long it takes is irrelevant), there is no lasting punishment for the perpetrator of the crimes committed. They will be forgiven. But the lost time on earth or the tainted experience of time on earth that the victims suffered can never be recovered. They don’t get a do over. The rape victim will always have been raped, the murdered will always have had a shortened life experience. The bereaved loved ones will have an eternity knowing the person that raped their daughter will ultimately get away with it, but her life experience will never be recovered.
IHAQ,

To your comment on "no lasting punishment" for perpetrators of harm on others, note that not all crimes, even horrible ones, carry a life sentence or death sentence. A rapist will generally get some term of decades, and even a murderer can sometimes get out after a certain term, particularly with parole. If the criminal served a sentence deemed appropriate for the crime, perhaps extenuated by a change in the person's character, did that person "ultimately get away with it"? I don't think the application of these legal penalties is designed at all to enable anyone to "get away with" anything. Nor would afterlife consequences be about "getting away with" harm caused. (by the way, I actually doubt that the afterlife is structured so as to deliberately punish people for wrongdoing. I suspect, rather, that people suffer natural consequences of sin---pain of conscience, alienation from others, the need to reconcile with others, and so on. If the pain of sin is ultimately in part that of unreconciled relationships within the body of humankind, the 'penance' of the perpetrators may in some sense continue as long as the victims refuse to forgive them.)

On the model of justice you employ above everyone who does lasting harm to another's life should have similarly lasting harm inflicted on their own. If someone lastingly mars another's life, their own life should be similarly marred, and similarly lastingly. In this case, every rapist, everyone guilty of assault that does lasting harm to another's body, even every bad parent, to name just a few categories, needs to either be put to death, be imprisoned for life, or have some other sort of permanent harm inflicted on them. As a society we've rejected this vision of 'justice' here on earth as something cruel. And if it isn't adequate here on earth, what makes it better projected onto absolute eternity?

To go back to what I mentioned above, my idea of justice here is more about the victim than it is about the perpetrator. While I do think that Stalin, Pol Pot, and others who were allowed to evade any consequences for horrendous behavior here should face accountability for their actions, I'm far more concerned that victims not be ultimately left with not but a brief or shattered life. An afterlife allows right to ultimately be done by them in the long run. You correctly mention that these victims' earthly lives will never be recovered. And you correctly point out that temporary suffering on the part of the perpetrators is relativized by the eternity that follows that suffering. What you omit to note is that the victims' earthly loss will also be relativized by the eternity that follows.

We are talking about two different kinds of justice here. I'm less concerned that an eye be taken for an eye and more concerned that right ultimately be done by people who were done wrong here. And the best possible recompense for them is not that those who inflicted harm on them will suffer forever, but, rather, that the the finite wrong inflicted on them will be followed by an eternal right. No recompense can possibly beat an eternal, and therefore infinite, one.

Don
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Don Bradley »

Moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:14 am
Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am
So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
Mercy.
I would certainly think so!

I don't really claim to know just how this all works out, of course. But I believe in and trust a God that I expect to work it all out more beautifully than I could ever begin to come up with.

Don
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by IHAQ »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:18 am
We are talking about two different kinds of justice here. I'm less concerned that an eye be taken for an eye and more concerned that right ultimately be done by people who were done wrong here. And the best possible recompense for them is not that those who inflicted harm on them will suffer forever, but, rather, that the the finite wrong inflicted on them will be followed by an eternal right. No recompense can possibly beat an eternal, and therefore infinite, one.

Don
Thanks Don, interesting thoughts.

This life is supposedly an agreed plan for individuals to go through an earthly existence to prove, experience or learn something material that will enable them to be better placed in the eternities. When a child is murdered that planned opportunity is eradicated forever. They never get it back. They must therefore be eternally hampered in some way for not having experienced life. If they are not, if it can all be made good regardless of not experiencing the learning of an earthly sojourn, then there was no imperative for an earthly existence at all.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Philo Sofee »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am
Moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:18 am
LaneWolfley • 11 hours ago
Thank you for these interesting observations. Mormonism is a distinct variation of the Universalist tradition, I think. Think about it: even Hitler eventually gets a crown of glory, resurrection and immortality in a Kingdom of unimaginable splendor!

Louis Midgley LaneWolfley • 6 hours ago • edited
Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ is good news even for the likes of Hitler. One can even hope that he has had a profound change and turned around, since that is still possible.
Posting this to say how wonderful it is, Moksha? ;)

You should be!


David Bentley Hart has a wonderful book on universal salvation called That All Shall Be Saved. Among the many, many arguments he employs is that no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty: https://smile.amazon.com/That-All-Shall ... 0300246226

Those who think anyone should be punished forever may be forgetting just how long forever is. Suppose every murderer had to spend 1,000,000 years of penance for each victim whose life they took, and suppose some particularly horrendous murderer killed several million people in concentration camps. One million times millions still comes out to a very finite number--'mere' trillions--a very large number, but a small number compared to the numbers humankind has conceptualized thus far, and still utterly finite. So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
This ENTIRELY resonates with me.......finite crimes simply cannot carry infinite penalties anymore than finite number get one to infinity. This demonstrates to me that the religious mindset of organized religions which call for this as if they really know the score are simply using scare tactics. So why listen to any of them? And now for the real bombshell, if penalties are not infinite, then how can blessings be either?
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by dastardly stem »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am
Moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:18 am
LaneWolfley • 11 hours ago
Thank you for these interesting observations. Mormonism is a distinct variation of the Universalist tradition, I think. Think about it: even Hitler eventually gets a crown of glory, resurrection and immortality in a Kingdom of unimaginable splendor!

Louis Midgley LaneWolfley • 6 hours ago • edited
Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ is good news even for the likes of Hitler. One can even hope that he has had a profound change and turned around, since that is still possible.
Posting this to say how wonderful it is, Moksha? ;)

You should be!


David Bentley Hart has a wonderful book on universal salvation called That All Shall Be Saved. Among the many, many arguments he employs is that no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty: https://smile.amazon.com/That-All-Shall ... 0300246226

Those who think anyone should be punished forever may be forgetting just how long forever is. Suppose every murderer had to spend 1,000,000 years of penance for each victim whose life they took, and suppose some particularly horrendous murderer killed several million people in concentration camps. One million times millions still comes out to a very finite number--'mere' trillions--a very large number, but a small number compared to the numbers humankind has conceptualized thus far, and still utterly finite. So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don
It's not that this isn't a nice thought. It's that it is not what Mormonism is. Finding yourself in a lower kingdom is precisely what punishment was supposed to be. You have to suffer the notion that you could have had more, if but, by chance, you weren't deceived like unto Hitler. Or, for those of us growing up the story was if we fail to keep the commandments, fail to be noble and great, then we too end up, eternally penalized, in a lesser station.
These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the cLamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world
Being redeemed from the devil might end up being quite a reward, but we still suffer an eternal penalty by not ever receiving of a fulness.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Dr Moore »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:38 am
Here's a story from my Utah History course in college that I'll come back to shortly. In early pioneer Utah, Ute warriors raided a pioneer settlement, killing several of the settlers. When Brigham Young demanded that the Utes turn over the offenders for punishment, the tribe dutifully rounded up and turned in several Utes. But it quickly became apparent that the several men turned over by the tribe, who included elderly and lame tribe members, could not have been the actual offenders.
Who is to say that the dead pioneers weren't receiving, on behalf of their Brighamite tribe, due justice for uninvited intrusion on native Indian territory and other undocumented atrocities?

One prevailing truth in human history is "survival of the fittest". As a fitting corollary, that the winner usually writes the history -- surprisingly, with the winner cast in the most favorable light.

What we do know is that Brigham and his followers appear to have been the stronger, better equipped, more organized tribe. And so their demand for justice was met with a token offering, such as it was. Could that have been because, and only because, a wise Indian chief recognized the futility of fighting further? Perhaps, in the tribe's mind, their best hope for justice had already been realized?

What we also know is that today there are far fewer instances of families and communities who go to sleep at night uncertain about whether or not their dwellings will be raided and loved ones killed. That's progress vs a mere 150 years ago, is it not? In part that is an output of collective empathy for individual anguish and suffering. So my point is not at all to promote a step backward in morality, but to recognize that humanity possesses a morality within itself that rather efficiently overcomes injustice and reverses entropy over time.

In Mormonism, that inherent morality is called the "light of Christ." As far as I'm aware, the so-called "light of Christ" does not demand justice, but is empathetic, merciful and forgiving. It is also no more than a yearning, is not dogmatic, and is given equally to atheists and theists alike.
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