BYU being sued for "online" curriculum not being what was paid for

[_Lemmie]

Lemmie my dear,

Spring is a wash. The pandemic has brought a near war-like condition upon the USA and the whole world.

Because of the pandemic there is a war-like condition (well beyond a riot) that encompasses the earth with terrible grip. The price ($$$) has to go up! The same product that people are used to is no longer available because of the pandemic. The alternative and substitute is however available but at the same price or higher even though the standard or quality is reduced. Business as usual is a thing of the past. Everything is changing. The world will never be the same again. This pandemic is shifting the entire planet into a new phase.

Wise Shulem,

You have summed it up!

Just a tiny anecdote regarding how the world will never be the same. If we had trouble with cable in the past, it would require calling in, waiting on hold many minutes for an available rep, then several minutes of verifying my ownership, my address, my account number, then confirming the problem, reading ID numbers off various pieces of equipment, following instructions regarding unplugging, reconnecting, etc, etc etc, and eventually the rep would figure something out, ask me to wait on hold while they sent some signal, several more minutes of holding and voila! Problem fixed.

During the pandemic, I called in about an issue, dreading the time commitment. With no delay, an automated message announced that fewer reps were working due to COVID and then it recognized my account by my phone number, and asked “are you experiencing trouble with cable? 1 for yes 2 for no.” I hit 1, and another automated message stated all boxes were being reset in my home, please hit 1 if problem resolves.” About 20 seconds later, cable restarted with problem resolved, and I hit 1. Final automated message, “thank you.”

In total, less than 1.5 minutes, compared with pre-pandemic service at around 30 minutes average. After this is over, no one will tolerate going back to the old way, at least in this tiny area. I suspect things like this are happening all over.

[_Shulem]

Yes, there are going to be a lot of changes and the evolution of technology will take the planet into a new phase. The pandemic is going to force the world to make serious changes in how it operates and worldwide cooperation will be enhanced as humans further evolve and make the necessary adjustment to survive anything and everything short of an asteroid such as wiped out the dinosaurs.

The lawsuit against BYU seems like such waste. The student should cut his losses like the rest of us, move on, and do whatever it takes to make the best of the situation. Everyone is in this together. Just work hard, study hard, get your degree, and put it to use!

[_Meadowchik]

It's not just against BYU. There are cases elsewhere and more will likely pop up. Maybe he is just being spiteful, but it's also possible that he feels like he'll need to retake the courses and he will need fees for that.

And if you have an elite private university with a huge endowment that primarily serves the wealthy and is charging $30K+ a year in tuition alone, then, OK, I suppose it is about that. BYU is not that school, even if the Church funding it is super-wealthy.

Unless I am reading this incorrectly, he signed up for the term after the pandemic had started, and he has signed up for Fall too. In other words, he could have opted out of what he perceived to be substandard class experiences, but he decided to keep on. I have very little sympathy for him.

I didn't bother to read this student's specifics. It's the general principle of both sides that I can understand.

He could have signed up for fall hoping classes would be available. Utah numbers were low for a while there.

I prefer to focus my anger on those who are neglecting science and defrauding the taxpayers and governments to wring as much out of this crisis as they can. If by the way that's the case for any student plaintiffs then I hope they don't win.

My uni has handled it valiantly in my opinion.

They scrambled to make remote learning available in March, and personally they gave me extra time to complete my exams because of mitigating circumstances.

For fall semester, they're giving all students the option to study remotely. I am taking it gratefully, for several reasons. It means I won't have to rely on glitchy pandemic bus schedules to make the hourlong journey to school everyday. It also means I'll be able to be home for my kids in the event of quarantining during the year.

It also gives me more valuable study time. So remote learning may work quite well for me. I just know that other learners may have the opposite experience. Maybe litigation is not necessary for them, especially schools making the good faith effort to accommodate. But it might be appropriate in some cases.

[_Kishkumen]

I prefer to focus my anger on those who are neglecting science and defrauding the taxpayers and governments to wring as much out of this crisis as they can. If by the way that's the case for any student plaintiffs then I hope they don't win.

My uni has handled it valiantly in my opinion.

They scrambled to make remote learning available in March, and personally they gave me extra time to complete my exams because of mitigating circumstances.

For fall semester, they're giving all students the option to study remotely. I am taking it gratefully, for several reasons. It means I won't have to rely on glitchy pandemic bus schedules to make the hourlong journey to school everyday. It also means I'll be able to be home for my kids in the event of quarantining during the year.

It also gives me more valuable study time. So remote learning may work quite well for me. I just know that other learners may have the opposite experience. Maybe litigation is not necessary for them, especially schools making the good faith effort to accommodate. But it might be appropriate in some cases.

BYU provides a quality education for a reasonable price. I doubt their handling of the unexpected catastrophe was that different from most other universities, including your valiant university. I don’t mistake BYU for church leadership or for Liberty University, the latter of which was the very model of ignoring science and behaving irresponsibly. LDS leadership actually advocated to its members that they follow the science by masking up and practicing social distancing. They did not ignore science and continue to hold meetings throughout the entire pandemic.

[_Lemmie]

If I recall correctly, lds leadership didn’t close their temples until a worker, in temple on a Wednesday or Thursday, became Utah’s first COVID death the following Sunday. Hopefully, they are more proactive now, rather than just reactive. Bednar’s rant about how being forced to close churches violates his religious rights, however, doesn’t spark confidence.

[_sunstoned]

For better or worse, I believe this pandemic will change not only how we do business, but how universities will operate. Going forward, I believe that distance delivered courses will become a significant offering at traditionally brick and mortar universities. With that said, not all online programs are the same. I teach at a state university, and their term for online is a self-paced asynchronous course that is distance delivered. They also have a "live streaming" course option. Which is distance delivered but replaces the on-campus classroom experience with interactive virtual classes delivered with Zoom or MS Teams. For this upcoming semester our school has chosen to have most courses distance delivered, so I will not be in a physical classroom this fall, and I will miss it.
I have deep experience developing and teaching distance delivered courses, and I believe they have their place. Distance delivered courses work well with mature, self-motivated learners, and their online, asynchronous nature offers a solution to geography and scheduling difficulties. But online is not for every student. Especially new students. I much prefer on-campus, face to face teaching. Online classes cannot replace the rich face to face classroom experience. Also, the traditional college experience, where much indirect learning takes place, is lost in a virtual environment.

[_Meadowchik]

BYU provides a quality education for a reasonable price. I doubt their handling of the unexpected catastrophe was that different from most other universities, including your valiant university. I don’t mistake BYU for church leadership or for Liberty University, the latter of which was the very model of ignoring science and behaving irresponsibly. LDS leadership actually advocated to its members that they follow the science by masking up and practicing social distancing. They did not ignore science and continue to hold meetings throughout the entire pandemic.

As a BYU alumnus I agree with your first point. To your second, I've been observing the pandemic since my own online students in China were in lockdown the first time, and I was greatly relieved when the church took precautionary social distancing steps.

[_Meadowchik]

If I recall correctly, LDS leadership didn’t close their temples until a worker, in temple on a Wednesday or Thursday, became Utah’s first COVID death the following Sunday. Hopefully, they are more proactive now, rather than just reactive. Bednar’s rant about how being forced to close churches violates his religious rights, however, doesn’t spark confidence.

Especially if Bednar's opinions are an example of prevailing feelings at the top, perhaps the church's litigation awareness has benefitted us all.

[_moksha]

The lawsuit against BYU seems like such waste. The student should cut his losses like the rest of us, move on, and do whatever it takes to make the best of the situation.

If the lawyers sense they will not be paid, the lawsuit will end abruptly.

[_toon]

For better or worse, I believe this pandemic will change not only how we do business, but how universities will operate. Going forward, I believe that distance delivered courses will become a significant offering at traditionally brick and mortar universities. With that said, not all online programs are the same.

I have deep experience developing and teaching distance delivered courses, and I believe they have their place. Distance delivered courses work well with mature, self-motivated learners, and their online, asynchronous nature offers a solution to geography and scheduling difficulties. But online is not for every student. Especially new students. I much prefer on-campus, face to face teaching. Online classes cannot replace the rich face to face classroom experience. Also, the traditional college experience, where much indirect learning takes place, is lost in a virtual environment.

It also depends on the program and degree. As an example, one of the benefits of law school is learning social drinking skills. I’m not sure that can be properly replicated online.