SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

[Lem]

David Bentley Hart has a wonderful book on universal salvation called That All Shall Be Saved. Among the many, many arguments he employs is that no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty: https://smile.amazon.com/That-All-Shall ... 0300246226

Those who think anyone should be punished forever may be forgetting just how long forever is. Suppose every murderer had to spend 1,000,000 years of penance for each victim whose life they took, and suppose some particularly horrendous murderer killed several million people in concentration camps. One million times millions still comes out to a very finite number--'mere' trillions--a very large number, but a small number compared to the numbers humankind has conceptualized thus far, and still utterly finite. So after all the suffering, penalty, purgatory, penance, repentance, or however one would conceive of it...then what?

Don

It's not that this isn't a nice thought. It's that it is not what Mormonism is.

Hi, Don! Thank you for your kind words about Johnny. They were touching and very much appreciated.

Back to dastardly stem's comment, I would have to agree with his conclusion that the lds theology does not, at least consistently, believe in finite punishment. If one believed in eternity, the argument that "no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty" makes sense, but it is not what the lds church teaches.

They need to understand that while there is a place for them hereafter with wonderful men and women who also chose not to make covenants with God, that is not the place where families will be reunited and be given the privilege to live and progress forever. That is not the kingdom where they will experience the fullness of joy, of never-ending progression and happiness.

I find it interesting that the SeN author believes his soul does not "demand unending torture in Hell for egregious wrong doers before they’ll be satisfied," but he finds acceptable the unending separation from the fullness of joy and from family members for those who worship differently than he does. It's not consistent, and it certainly doesn't represent the thoughts argued here by Don.

Peterson may be expressing his private opinions, but he certainly posts as though he represents the lds church position, which I think is what leads to the frequently morally strange positions he takes. Building theological consistency out of the lds position is an impossible task.

[Doctor Scratch]

Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ is good news even for the likes of Hitler. One can even hope that he has had a profound change and turned around, since that is still possible.

[IHAQ]

Back to dastardly stem's comment, I would have to agree with his conclusion that the lds theology does not, at least consistently, believe in finite punishment. If one believed in eternity, the argument that "no finite wrongdoing can rightly incur an infinite penalty" makes sense, but it is not what the lds church teaches.

They need to understand that while there is a place for them hereafter with wonderful men and women who also chose not to make covenants with God, that is not the place where families will be reunited and be given the privilege to live and progress forever. That is not the kingdom where they will experience the fullness of joy, of never-ending progression and happiness.

I find it interesting that the SeN author believes his soul does not "demand unending torture in Hell for egregious wrong doers before they’ll be satisfied," but he finds acceptable the unending separation from the fullness of joy and from family members for those who worship differently than he does. It's not consistent, and it certainly doesn't represent the thoughts argued here by Don.

Peterson may be expressing his private opinions, but he certainly posts as though he represents the lds church position, which I think is what leads to the frequently morally strange positions he takes. Building theological consistency out of the lds position is an impossible task.

I agree that the LDS position is one of eternal (infinite) punishment. If your lot is the Terrestial Kingdom you cannot “repent” or be “forgiven” such that you can make progress upwards to the Celestial Kingdom. It’s over for you. You will NEVER EVER again get to live with God (which is where you lived before the earth thing). And that kingdom allocation is to be based on your “blink of an eye” performance on earth. In fact, when you think about it, the LDS Plan Of Happiness is all risk and zero incremental reward.

[Paloma]

Lem wrote of Daniel Peterson: "Building theological consistency out of the lds position is an impossible task."

I would think so! And I wonder how much more "impossible" when you add his wide reading of mainstream or classic Christian apologists,theologians and philosophers (C.S. Lewis, Alister McGrath, Douglas Groothuis, Alvin Plantinga, Josh McDowell, Gary Habermas, William Lane Craig, among others). And that's not mentioning more historical voices such as Augustine, Aquinas, etc.

Then there's N. T. Wright whom Louis Midgley applauds regularly, but Peterson has not yet "got to". Seems to me that Midgley "reads" an lds-leaning theological bent into Wright that I highly question. (But if Midgley appreciates him so much, he must have an affinity for LDS thought!!)

I really like what Kishkumen said on another thread (the one about the apologists going after Terry Givens) that all of theology hangs on "Love God and love your fellow humans". That in itself is the answer to our desire for justice, and to being "gatekeepers" of the truth rather than choosing the way of humility and love.

[Gadianton]

Ignoring the vast inconsistencies in DCP's moral reasoning, there are other problems with common-sense notions of fairness and justice when extending a persons lifetime out to infinity, not to mention when comparing conditions on earth. As others have pointed out, eternity is a long time to never see your family again. Although, after a couple billion years won't you move on from people you only knew for a handful of years?

Well, with a perfect memory and if the next life is incredibly static, maybe you will remember back that far as it was the only interesting thing to ever happen? Otherwise, you'll move on. And then, expectations change a lot once you wake up immortal. If a drunk driver wiped you out but here you are, like pac-man in the blue home square ready to go then the need for 'justice' isn't the same as in mortal life with zero evidence there is anything beyond the grave.

There is an irony that theists would long for justice the same way a non-theist would -- it kind of shows how little credence they give to their actual faith.

[Doctor Scratch]

Ignoring the vast inconsistencies in DCP's moral reasoning, there are other problems with common-sense notions of fairness and justice when extending a persons lifetime out to infinity, not to mention when comparing conditions on earth. As others have pointed out, eternity is a long time to never see your family again. Although, after a couple billion years won't you move on from people you only knew for a handful of years?

Well, with a perfect memory and if the next life is incredibly static, maybe you will remember back that far as it was the only interesting thing to ever happen? Otherwise, you'll move on. And then, expectations change a lot once you wake up immortal. If a drunk driver wiped you out but here you are, like pac-man in the blue home square ready to go then the need for 'justice' isn't the same as in mortal life with zero evidence there is anything beyond the grave.

There is an irony that theists would long for justice the same way a non-theist would -- it kind of shows how little credence they give to their actual faith.

Exactly. The way this squares--or doesn't--with actual LDS theology is difficult to reckon with. But yes, the idea of the afterlife figuring into DCP's seemingly endless thirst for revenge and vindication is pretty telling, as you point out. Plus, I frankly found it pretty appalling that he was willing to "envision" himself in the place of a child being strangled and raped merely to set the stage for some point-scoring. I don't know about you, but my "derangement meter" was going off the charts when I read that.

[Philo Sofee]

Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ is good news even for the likes of Hitler. One can even hope that he has had a profound change and turned around, since that is still possible.

That may work for Midgley, but not for Gimli. He is a scientist who disagrees with God, and therefore unredeemable. Scientists are vastly worse than a mere mass murderer in Midget's book. That's why he ridicules them and hopes for redemption for the wicked Hitler.

[Doctor Scratch]

I think that's a fair point, Philo. I mean, the idea of "justice" via the afterlife is really pretty bizarre, especially in the context of Mopologetics. I mean, let's take the case of Gerald Bradford, who Midgley and DCP both absolutely hate. Per LDS teachings, Bradford is most likely in the Celestial Kingdom right now, and he's an exalted being, wielding dominion over his own planet/universe. Maybe he's basking in the glory of the stratified society akin to the one depicted in Added Upon. Now, how does this constitute justice in Dr. Peterson's eyes? He talks about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot having to sit there and reflect on the bad things they did, but would that hold true for Bradford? Is he going to be forced to have to "suffer" through the changes he instituted at the Maxwell Institute? I doubt it. So, when you think about it, the Mopologists' notion of "heavenly justice" doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

[Dr Exiled]

I think that's a fair point, Philo. I mean, the idea of "justice" via the afterlife is really pretty bizarre, especially in the context of Mopologetics. I mean, let's take the case of Gerald Bradford, who Midgley and DCP both absolutely hate. Per LDS teachings, Bradford is most likely in the Celestial Kingdom right now, and he's an exalted being, wielding dominion over his own planet/universe. Maybe he's basking in the glory of the stratified society akin to the one depicted in Added Upon. Now, how does this constitute justice in Dr. Peterson's eyes? He talks about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot having to sit there and reflect on the bad things they did, but would that hold true for Bradford? Is he going to be forced to have to "suffer" through the changes he instituted at the Maxwell Institute? I doubt it. So, when you think about it, the Mopologists' notion of "heavenly justice" doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

I bet Jesus played a little one on one with Senor Bradford and showed him how there will be no uncontested lay-ups in the celestial kingdom. I heard Jesus can jump, sometimes doing flips prior to swatting away the ball. No one dares come inside on basketball jesus.

[Lem]

I think that's a fair point, Philo. I mean, the idea of "justice" via the afterlife is really pretty bizarre, especially in the context of Mopologetics. I mean, let's take the case of Gerald Bradford, who Midgley and DCP both absolutely hate. Per LDS teachings, Bradford is most likely in the Celestial Kingdom right now, and he's an exalted being, wielding dominion over his own planet/universe. Maybe he's basking in the glory of the stratified society akin to the one depicted in Added Upon. Now, how does this constitute justice in Dr. Peterson's eyes? He talks about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot having to sit there and reflect on the bad things they did, but would that hold true for Bradford? Is he going to be forced to have to "suffer" through the changes he instituted at the Maxwell Institute? I doubt it. So, when you think about it, the Mopologists' notion of "heavenly justice" doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

I bet Jesus played a little one on one with Senor Bradford and showed him how there will be no uncontested lay-ups in the celestial kingdom. I heard Jesus can jump, sometimes doing flips prior to swatting away the ball. No one dares come inside on basketball jesus.

And his lay-ups are JELLY. All damn DAY.