Why isn't the Celestial Kingdom Enough?

[Doctor Scratch]

I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the Mopologists have been spending huge amounts of time lately dwelling on secular matters. For example, "SeN" features a repeating blurb entitled "The Christopher Hitchens Religion Poisons Everything File," which is devoted to showing how great/generous religion actually is. (It's almost always about charitable giving.) And then there are the links to "studies" which show that religious people are better off in terms of various measures--e.g., they're "happier," and so forth, though it's worth pointing out that these conclusions are about religion *generally*, and not about Mormonism specifically. Meanwhile, Kyler "Mr. Potato Head" Rasmussen is expending a Herculean effort in trying to show, via dishonest Bayesian analysis, that it's reasonable to believe that the Book of Mormon is real history. And let's not forget the endless name-dropping, the sad need to boast about their travels, and so on and so forth.

What I can't help but wonder amidst all of this is: Why? Midgley has said many times that he considers his mortal existence to be a probation. He's just biding his time until he gets summoned up to the "Great Beyond." And, of course, in what must be the most embarrassing thing he's ever admitted, Dr. Peterson is hoping that he gets to go on to a heaven that resembles Added Upon. That's all fine and good, but the reality is that, per LDS doctrine, none of this other secular stuff matters. Heavenly Father doesn't care how many academic degrees you have, or whether you've travelled to New Zealand. He cares about whether you've been through the temple, whether you pay your tithing, and whether you keep the commandments or not. So why fixate on things like half-assed sociological studies that "show" that being religious means that you'll be happier? What's the point of that?

To be honest, I think the answer is that the Mopologists have cracks in their faith. Deep inside, they are afraid that the Church isn't true, and that they won't get to go to Heaven, and that Christopher Hitchens was actually right. DCP is already insanely jealous of Hitchens's status as a Public Intellectual, but to think that he was *right* about the question of the afterlife, too? Well, it's enough for the Mopologists to scramble about madly, making sure that they haven't put all their eggs in one basket. Because even if the Church is a crock, hey: at least they're "happier," because these studies of religion say so! So take that, Hitchens! And even if atheists get to sidestep the anxieties that this situation no doubt causes, hey, screw you, because at least the Mopologists have PhDs!!!

I suppose there are other ways of looking at this. Perhaps they think, "Hey: we're stuck here until we die, so we might as well make the best of it," but even so, that's a compromise, because they are doing it on the secular world's terms. There really is no way around the fact that this offers up definitive proof that the Mopologists have doubts about the Celestial Kingdom.

In all seriousness: Why do the Mopologists have such an obsessive need to find validation for their choice in religion?

[drumdude]

They're just very concerned that we won't make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom and be able to have endless sexual relations with our many wives. It's very kind of them, as much as DCP would love to have Celestial Kingdom smoothie servant Dr. Scratch serve him in the Celestial Kingdom, he's still trying to save you.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Meanwhile, Kyler "Mr. Potato Head" Rasmussen is expending a Herculean effort in trying to show, via dishonest Bayesian analysis, that it's reasonable to believe that the Book of Mormon is real history.

….

In all seriousness: Why do the Mopologists have such an obsessive need to find validation for their choice in religion?

Well, what’s worse for them is the brethren are ditching the historicity angle for the Book of Mormon. Russell M. Nelson stated outright that the Book of Mormon “isn’t a historical textbook”, and another just said “it wasn’t history.”

This is happening a lot faster than anyone expected; we even postulated that it’d be 20-25 years before they moved the LDS church into Church of Christ territory. I guess the Internet-induced mass apostasy happening right now has scared the crap out of the leadership. Perhaps they’re overcorrecting too soon, but I’m not sure they have many options left.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

I suppose there are other ways of looking at this. Perhaps they think, "Hey: we're stuck here until we die, so we might as well make the best of it," but even so, that's a compromise, because they are doing it on the secular world's terms. There really is no way around the fact that this offers up definitive proof that the Mopologists have doubts about the Celestial Kingdom.

Kind of like how they read books or battle critics by phone during church services? You have to wonder, if they are so bored with what Heavenly Father has provided for them on this earth, why do they think they will be so much more satisfied in the Celestial Kingdom?

But the general observation really is a problem. Why would they even care what critics think for a second? Let's say that you're poor and hungry, and mocked and teased by others. Then suppose an angelic messenger brings you a message, and the truth of the message is confirmed to you with absolute certainty. The message says that in three days, you will be given a billion dollars and a team to help you manage it. In just moments, you'll be eating whatever you want; laying on a beach with people serving you; riding around the city in a limo. Do you think that you'd care about being hungry or made fun of? You might relish it, gearing up for maximum transition effect.

In seminary, a teacher stretched a string from corner to corner of the room, and then touched it in the middle with a marker. That dot represented a tiny bit of hardship and suffering here. If you really believe that, then nobody mocking your faith or telling you that you are wrong will have the least effect.

Therefore, they don't believe it.

[Doctor Scratch]

Great points, Dr. Robbers.

Practically everywhere you turn, you see the Mopologists seeking after worldly approval and metrics of success that come entirely from the secular world. Interpreter, the "Witnesses" movie--you name it. It's laughable to imagine that any of this stuff was done to please Heavenly Father. It was 100% about them trying to "impress," to seem important, etc.

[drumdude]

Therefore, they don't believe it.

I don't buy it. I think DCP actually believes it. And I think it hinges, as he says, on a very personal experience that he interprets in the only way he knows how. I think it comforts him as well, because he often thinks of family that has passed on. It doesn't make sense to him that this is all for nothing.

Maybe there's room in his mind for doubt that he's wrong about the specifics, but he very much believes that God is real and an afterlife exists.

[Philo Sofee]

Great points, Dr. Robbers.

Practically everywhere you turn, you see the Mopologists seeking after worldly approval and metrics of success that come entirely from the secular world. Interpreter, the "Witnesses" movie--you name it. It's laughable to imagine that any of this stuff was done to please Heavenly Father. It was 100% about them trying to "impress," to seem important, etc.

It's not about Heavenly Father. It's about cow-towing to the church. To Mopologists the church saves them. The church is their god, not Elohim. Elohim is a mere figure head to show off ancient language Hebrew skills in order to impress the church. IT ***pays*** you, not Elohim. IT keeps you in your social loop, not God. IT tells you what you are allowed to write and how to write, not God. God has fundamentally nothing to do with Mopologetics. The church does. It is in charge, it has power over them, it dictates where they will be and go when it wants them to, allowing them little side pleasure trips when it decides they can do so. IT tells you how to dress, talk, act, and think on Sundays.

God has truly nothing to do with Mopologists. It's all about the Church as Mental Gymnast recently demonstrated with his lousy defense of Joseph Smith NO MATTER WHAT, because Big Brother Church is watching, and if it gets pissed, Mental Gymnast is ***toast.***

[Doctor Scratch]

Therefore, they don't believe it.

It doesn't make sense to him that this is all for nothing.

I think that the thought of that being true infuriates him, but he nonetheless worries on some level that it's true, hence all the grasping at secular "accomplishments." If *this* life is all there is, then you better live it to the fullest, right? To hell with boring Church meetings and lame LDS culture: you better pack in as much travel, eating, and academic accomplishments as you can! Gluttony becomes the order of the day. And the evidence is all there: if the Mopologists were the kinds of people who were focused on serving God and living the gospel, then there would be little need for things like daily blogging, writing books about how it's "reasonable" to believe in God ("reasonable"! My goodness, talk about weak gruel!), or sailing to New Zealand in order to hunt down Gina Colvin. Viewed in this way, Dr. Peterson's service as an "agent" for the SCMC actually makes more sense than, say, Witnesses, because in that case, he was doing the Brethren's bidding.

But one need look no further than the fact that the Mopologists have been chastised *repeatedly* by other Latter-day Saints for being "unchristian." Even Richard Bushman complained once that the apologists were being too bellicose. And it's worth remembering that the Mopologists have been inhaling the fumes of the Church's fraudulence for decades. Even the most stubborn person imaginable has the get worn down to a certain extent by the endless mountains of evidence that, e.g., the Book of Mormon is not historical. And guess what DCP's solution to this problem is? It's not to get down on his knees and pray for his testimony to be strengthened. It's the most secular thing imaginable: he goes out and executive produces a movie. And when the movie comes out, it's not a "missionary activity." Instead, he's watching Rotten Tomatoes and the box office figures like a hawk. Who does that? A greedy, slavish secularist who craves worldly recognition? Or an authentic disciple of Christ?

[Alphus and Omegus]

I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the Mopologists have been spending huge amounts of time lately dwelling on secular matters. For example, "SeN" features a repeating blurb entitled "The Christopher Hitchens Religion Poisons Everything File," which is devoted to showing how great/generous religion actually is. (It's almost always about charitable giving.) And then there are the links to "studies" which show that religious people are better off in terms of various measures--e.g., they're "happier," and so forth, though it's worth pointing out that these conclusions are about religion *generally*, and not about Mormonism specifically. Meanwhile, Kyler "Mr. Potato Head" Rasmussen is expending a Herculean effort in trying to show, via dishonest Bayesian analysis, that it's reasonable to believe that the Book of Mormon is real history. And let's not forget the endless name-dropping, the sad need to boast about their travels, and so on and so forth.

What I can't help but wonder amidst all of this is: Why? Midgley has said many times that he considers his mortal existence to be a probation. He's just biding his time until he gets summoned up to the "Great Beyond." And, of course, in what must be the most embarrassing thing he's ever admitted, Dr. Peterson is hoping that he gets to go on to a heaven that resembles Added Upon. That's all fine and good, but the reality is that, per LDS doctrine, none of this other secular stuff matters. Heavenly Father doesn't care how many academic degrees you have, or whether you've travelled to New Zealand. He cares about whether you've been through the temple, whether you pay your tithing, and whether you keep the commandments or not. So why fixate on things like half-assed sociological studies that "show" that being religious means that you'll be happier? What's the point of that?

To be honest, I think the answer is that the Mopologists have cracks in their faith. Deep inside, they are afraid that the Church isn't true, and that they won't get to go to Heaven, and that Christopher Hitchens was actually right. DCP is already insanely jealous of Hitchens's status as a Public Intellectual, but to think that he was *right* about the question of the afterlife, too? Well, it's enough for the Mopologists to scramble about madly, making sure that they haven't put all their eggs in one basket. Because even if the Church is a crock, hey: at least they're "happier," because these studies of religion say so! So take that, Hitchens! And even if atheists get to sidestep the anxieties that this situation no doubt causes, hey, screw you, because at least the Mopologists have PhDs!!!

I suppose there are other ways of looking at this. Perhaps they think, "Hey: we're stuck here until we die, so we might as well make the best of it," but even so, that's a compromise, because they are doing it on the secular world's terms. There really is no way around the fact that this offers up definitive proof that the Mopologists have doubts about the Celestial Kingdom.

In all seriousness: Why do the Mopologists have such an obsessive need to find validation for their choice in religion?

It all goes back to DCP having no real constituency. He thought the church leaders cared about his ideas. But after being forced out of MI, that was revealed as false. The academic Mormons see him as not that different from Meldrum since he clings desperately to historicity still. And the grassroots members see him as a godless commie who twists the scriptures.

So basically, all he has left is to fondly recall the pursuit of the respect he did not attain, and to hail those actual friends he made along the way.

And as for the trying to justify theism generally, that's pretty typical of other faiths. They all do it with generic god proofs, while deliberately ignoring the obvious problems with bedrock claims of their own specific traditions, such as Satan not being a specific person in the Hebrew Bible, or the nonexistent evidence for the Tower of Babel myth.

It's Underpants Gnome Theology:

Step 1: Devise a scenario where some sort of creator(s) could possibly exist.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Conclude that one's own faith and denomination are therefore true.

The thing sectarian apologists don't realize is that there are tens of thousands of physical, biological, geological, historical, and anthropological propositions which must be proved true in order to reach step 3. Deists or pantheists have no such problems.

In order to prove Mormonism is true, you have to prove Nelson and all his predecessors (and disprove their rivals), you have to prove the truth of the King James Bible, the texts it utilized, you have to disprove all the other versions of early Christianity, you have to prove the early Christians secretly practiced Joseph Smith Mormonism, you then have to prove that Christianity generally is not a syncretistic spinoff of Second Temple Judaism and Stoicism, that Jesus existed and was regarded as divine in his lifetime, that David and Solomon existed and that Solomon secretly practiced Mormonism, that Judaism is not a reimagined version of Canaanite polytheism with various deities turned into angels or demons, that the Documentary Hypothesis is false, that Moses existed, that the Genesis and Exodus stories happened, that the "Sons of God" angel-human hybrids were real, that the Anakim existed and were a race of giants, that the Great Flood and Tower of Babel were real . . .

People who seek to rationalize fundamentalism usually will abandon the effort once they realize the futility by deconverting entirely or dropping fundamentalist belief in their faith.

For those who do not, they seem to either go insane or settle for Underpants Gnome Mormonism, Catholicism, Judaism, etc.

Dan Peterson has decided to join the gnomes. He has his fuzzy feeling and that's all he needs to get to Step 3.

[Fence Sitter]

Once you build a castle, you defend it.