The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

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Jersey Girl
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Jersey Girl »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:23 am
Funny, I don’t think anything rides on it, especially for you. I’m puzzled by why you think evidence is important on the question of the existence of God. Let me use Jersey Girl as an example. She’s a believer based on faith. It works for her, and she believes it helps her be a better person. And I don’t have a problem with that. Who am I to tell her that her life would be better off without her religious beliefs. How could I possibly know that? And my lack of belief doesn’t seem to bother her. I don’t think my absence of belief makes me better than her or smarter than her. And I think she feels the same way — or if she does, she hides it really well. So, what does this quest for evidence give you that Jersey Girl doesn’t already have? Seriously, I just don’t get it.
Most of what you say here is accurate. I don't believe that my faith makes me a better person. I think my faith brings me closer in line with what God wants me to be mainly by the example of Jesus Christ. I often stink at it but I strive. Your lack of belief doesn't bother me in the least. That's not how I relate to you.

Can I ask you a question if you're still here? Do you think human beings on the whole are more intelligent now than in the Biblical period? I guess what I'm asking isn't about accomplishments, but our development as human beings. Do you think humans back then had the same level of executive function that we have now? I mean, most of us.

I'm asking for myself, not because I'm setting up an argument here.

If anyone else reads my question and would like to offer up an answer, please do.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Jersey Girl
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:19 am
I think my faith brings me closer in line with what God wants me to be mainly by the example of Jesus Christ. I often stink at it but I strive.
I want to say more about this. When I refer to the example of Jesus, I'm talking about the principles for living that he taught, how to relate to other human beings. Things like loving thy neighbor as thyself, being kind, doing unto others, all of that. So..I'm going to bring this back to you in a minute...if I develop those qualities in myself I believe I'm living as Jesus taught and ultimately becoming who God wants me to be.

Back to you. So far as I can tell, you subscribe to those character traits or values. You consider them and act on them in much the same way as I do. Take God out of the equation. When I think about the benefits of developing those values, I think you can take God out of the equation and say that from a sociological perspective or evolutionary perspective, those are the behaviors that maintain the health of the herd and the survival of the species.

So, there you go. I can see both ways of viewing the world.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Morley »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:19 am
Can I ask you a question if you're still here? Do you think human beings on the whole are more intelligent now than in the Biblical period? I guess what I'm asking isn't about accomplishments, but our development as human beings. Do you think humans back then had the same level of executive function that we have now? I mean, most of us.

I'm asking for myself, not because I'm setting up an argument here.

If anyone else reads my question and would like to offer up an answer, please do.
Julian Jaynes, in his The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, argued yes. He thought that consciousness was a learned behavior based on the development of sophisticated language and culture, and that it didn't begin to emerge until a few centuries before Christ. If I remember correctly, he even posited that the ability to distinguish certain colors (blue) didn't develop until relatively modern times. The book was pretty controversial when it came out. I had a professor and mentor who thought Jaynes' theory was the best thing since sliced bread (but then, he also thought that Arthur Jensen had it right).

I was never convinced. While interesting to read, for the most part I think Jaynes' theories are way over-blown and based on some pretty tenuous evidence. I don't believe human brains have changed significantly in the last 20,000 years--and probably have remained the same for much longer than that.


edit: Given the OP, I should add that I believe Jaynes suggested that the penchant for talking directly with god (in which god appears and answers) was a function of this pre-modern mind.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:19 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:23 am
Funny, I don’t think anything rides on it, especially for you. I’m puzzled by why you think evidence is important on the question of the existence of God. Let me use Jersey Girl as an example. She’s a believer based on faith. It works for her, and she believes it helps her be a better person. And I don’t have a problem with that. Who am I to tell her that her life would be better off without her religious beliefs. How could I possibly know that? And my lack of belief doesn’t seem to bother her. I don’t think my absence of belief makes me better than her or smarter than her. And I think she feels the same way — or if she does, she hides it really well. So, what does this quest for evidence give you that Jersey Girl doesn’t already have? Seriously, I just don’t get it.
Most of what you say here is accurate. I don't believe that my faith makes me a better person. I think my faith brings me closer in line with what God wants me to be mainly by the example of Jesus Christ. I often stink at it but I strive. Your lack of belief doesn't bother me in the least. That's not how I relate to you.

Can I ask you a question if you're still here? Do you think human beings on the whole are more intelligent now than in the Biblical period? I guess what I'm asking isn't about accomplishments, but our development as human beings. Do you think humans back then had the same level of executive function that we have now? I mean, most of us.

I'm asking for myself, not because I'm setting up an argument here.

If anyone else reads my question and would like to offer up an answer, please do.
I’ve never thought about it before, but I don’t think there could have been much change. 2000 years is a pretty short time for significant change to evolve in the brain.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:48 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:19 am
I think my faith brings me closer in line with what God wants me to be mainly by the example of Jesus Christ. I often stink at it but I strive.
I want to say more about this. When I refer to the example of Jesus, I'm talking about the principles for living that he taught, how to relate to other human beings. Things like loving thy neighbor as thyself, being kind, doing unto others, all of that. So..I'm going to bring this back to you in a minute...if I develop those qualities in myself I believe I'm living as Jesus taught and ultimately becoming who God wants me to be.

Back to you. So far as I can tell, you subscribe to those character traits or values. You consider them and act on them in much the same way as I do. Take God out of the equation. When I think about the benefits of developing those values, I think you can take God out of the equation and say that from a sociological perspective or evolutionary perspective, those are the behaviors that maintain the health of the herd and the survival of the species.

So, there you go. I can see both ways of viewing the world.
I think you’re right about what I do. What has always been interesting is that trying to be a better person has felt the same to me, regardless of whether I was a believer or not. At least subconsciously, I’d bought into the evil atheist stereotype. And in my case, it just wasn’t true. Same moral compass. No desire to treat people badly. None of it.
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:23 am
I’m puzzled by why you think evidence is important on the question of the existence of God.
In a society/world that has increasingly become more secular, evidence that gives a scientific opening for God will appeal to a certain segment of those who have been swayed/raised towards/in a strictly secular humanist philosophical view in regards to life’s meaning and purpose. Merely pushing a Bible into their hands may not do it.

Alternatively, if the science did not provide an opening for God it is more likely that even more ‘nones’ would be running around and their numbers would increase exponentially. As it is, my guess is that there are a bunch of folks that when they come across fine tuning arguments and the ongoing issues with abiogenesis they may open their hearts and minds…and the Bible may have more meaning for them as they look for God and then come to a faith in His Son.

But that’s only a certain segment of folks. But who knows how many might fall into this category.

There are various paths to God. Analytic exploration through scientific means is a path that may lead many people in the secular crowd towards greater meaning and purpose and a belief/hope in a hereafter if they decide to adhere to a religious practice with others or latch on to a spiritual practice on an individual level.

That’s why I said a lot rides on the scientific explorations into OOL research. It’s the world we live in.

By the way, Res Ipsa, I have no qualms with the path you have chosen and realize that you have done so as a result of your own life experience and learning. And I am appreciative of your willingness to allow religionists to do the same. And it’s ‘just OK’ for you to believe that I’m wrong and for me to believe that you’re wrong. 🙂😉

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by huckelberry »

I took the time to watch Mr Tours presentation linked in this thread and Dave's response. My thoughts are not a lot different than what has been mentioned but it wont hurt if I add them anyway.

Mr Tours has a simple point that the complexity of a simple living cell is an enormous distance from a nonliving primary source and people do not know the path between the two. At the same time he uses emotions to make it sound like that is some complete statement. Without perhaps clearly saying so he indicates that a single step between the two is impossible.

But nobody researching the question expects a single step or anything close to it.

Dave presents a bunch of information about investigations into chemical processes that could contribute to the chain of events. I really do not know biochemistry so my understanding of what he presented is limited. He did give me a bit more perspective on fragments or suggestions I have heard previously. He certainly does not know the story of the appearance of life. Yet I find what he presents more interesting than Mr Tours angry pronouncement that we do not know the story of how that worked.
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:05 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:23 am
I’m puzzled by why you think evidence is important on the question of the existence of God.
In a society/world that has increasingly become more secular, evidence that gives a scientific opening for God will appeal to a certain segment of those who have been swayed/raised towards/in a strictly secular humanist philosophical view in regards to life’s meaning and purpose. Merely pushing a Bible into their hands may not do it.

Alternatively, if the science did not provide an opening for God it is more likely that even more ‘nones’ would be running around and their numbers would increase exponentially. As it is, my guess is that there are a bunch of folks that when they come across fine tuning arguments and the ongoing issues with abiogenesis they may open their hearts and minds…and the Bible may have more meaning for them as they look for God and then come to a faith in His Son.

But that’s only a certain segment of folks. But who knows how many might fall into this category.

There are various paths to God. Analytic exploration through scientific means is a path that may lead many people in the secular crowd towards greater meaning and purpose and a belief/hope in a hereafter if they decide to adhere to a religious practice with others or latch on to a spiritual practice on an individual level.

That’s why I said a lot rides on the scientific explorations into OOL research. It’s the world we live in.

By the way, Res Ipsa, I have no qualms with the path you have chosen and realize that you have done so as a result of your own life experience and learning. And I am appreciative of your willingness to allow religionists to do the same. And it’s ‘just OK’ for you to believe that I’m wrong and for me to believe that you’re wrong. 🙂😉

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG
Thanks, it does. So, if I’m understanding correctly, what’s in it for you is that it would lead others to believe in God. Please correct me if I’m off the mark.

But how does that fit with free agency and the concept of this life as a test? If one could actually prove that Good was necessary through scientific evidence, then doesn’t make this life a test of reason rather than faith? If one takes reason seriously, no reasonable person could deny the existence of God if God were actually proven necessary. It would be equivalent of God showing up for a world tour, giving talks in stadiums, healing cripples, raising from the dead. If God wants to test our reason, whither faith?

And the notion that pushing the Bible into peoples hands not being enough strikes me as odd. It’s the word of God. Isn’t that supposed to be enough?

I’m going to play literal devils advocate for a minute. Wasn’t it Satan’s plan that everybody be “saved.” Doing whatever it takes to make it impossible for a rational person not to believe in God sound more like the bad guys plan than the good guys.
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

… ongoing issues with abiogenesis …

-_-

Well, you know what they say. Forces that just so happen to vibrate at the same frequency flock together. No? Too obscure?

Think of it like this, anti-abiogenesisites.

Here’s a chemical compound: 8====o

Here’s another compound: ^{ }^

The first compound just so happens to fit nicely inside the second just so: ^8=}^

Now you have complexity. Did God do that?

gOd CrEaTeD tHe CoMpOuNdS aNd ThEy WeRe dEsIgNeD tO fIt!

Ok. Here’s a basic force at the bottom of the existential reality of the Universe: o o

Here’s another basic force at the bottom of the existential reality of the Universe: ( )( )

Because they’re vibrating at complimentary frequencies they harmonize nicely into this: (o)(o)

Did God do that?

gOd cReAtEd ThE rUlEs oF tHiS uNivErSe So yEaH aBiOgEnEsIs HaS pRoBlEmS!

-_-

- Doc
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Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by MG 2.0 »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:09 pm
…Mr Tours angry pronouncement that we do not know the story of how that worked.
Angry?

I have seen angry atheists. 😉

Regards,
MG
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