Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

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drumdude
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Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by drumdude »

“DCP” wrote:
While in the air, I began to read a book by one Terry Higham, “a research-minded Catholic layman” who is based in the United Kingdom, titled The God Debate: Dawkins in Denial: Christian Guide Through an Atheist Wilderness. I wasn’t expecting much — I knew nothing about either the book or its author, although I had, it seems, loaded it onto my iPad at some indeterminate point in the past — but I’ve rather liked it thus far. Higham is obviously bright and quite well read. And, candidly, I enjoy critiques of Richard Dawkins, who doesn’t present quite the hilarious target that the late Christopher Hitchens did, but who nevertheless positively demands contradiction.

DCP quotes from the book: “In his brief engagement with miracles, Dawkins asserts as if self-evidently true that New Testament miracles such as the virgin birth, the raising of Lazarus, and the resurrection of Jesus could only be verified by scientific method. Despite the fact that, in oral or written form, human testimony is the kind of evidence that permeates and shapes our lives, dominates our law courts, and gives us access to the history of our race, Dawkins seems to dismiss it when it comes to reporting miracles, thereby seeking to set the evidential bar too high for advocates of such miracles to clear.”

DCP mocks Dawkins for having no understanding of philosophy of religion. Yet DCP cannot even wrap his mind around Hume’s very simple definition of a miracle. Were any of those events a violation of natural law or not, Daniel?

Mormon theology does not allow for violations of natural law. But DCP is either ignorant or willfully misleading, grabbing at any evangelical / Protestant / Catholic argument he can copy and paste, regardless of if it fits into LDS theology or not.
dastardly stem
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by dastardly stem »

Sounds to me Higham is trying to pull the same old apologetic tactic many have done before him. There is no human testimony for the virgin birth, raising of Lazarus, or the resurrection of Jesus. Each of those are recorded by an anonymous writer leaving us no reason to think he’s attempting a portrayal of accurate history. But Dawkins is correct anyway, it seems to me. Human testimony all too often gets it wrong. It just so happens for these claimed miracles we don’t even have human testimony—perhaps the lowest bar we need to clear.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Dr Exiled
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by Dr Exiled »

If a well-respected doctor or scientist claims to have been taken up to the celestial worlds and have been shown that Mormonism and all religion is folly, that the top down religious model is purely a human creation, and the human concepts of God are pure fiction and nonsense, is that doctor or scientist to be believed like the three holy witnesses? Or would DCP discount this person for not landing on his predetermined conclusion?

I get it though. He made a movie and must continue to support his witnesses despite the utter lack of proof for actual Nephites. Delusional or mistaken or perhaps lying witnesses is still a thing.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
huckelberry
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:57 am
DCP mocks Dawkins for having no understanding of philosophy of religion. Yet DCP cannot even wrap his mind around Hume’s very simple definition of a miracle. Were any of those events a violation of natural law or not, Daniel?

Mormon theology does not allow for violations of natural law. But DCP is either ignorant or willfully misleading, grabbing at any evangelical / Protestant / Catholic argument he can copy and paste, regardless of if it fits into LDS theology or not.
Drumdude, I was puzzled by your comment so googled lds, miracle and an official looking site said:

“A miracle is an extraordinary event caused by the power of God. Miracles are an important element in the work of Jesus Christ. They include healings, restoring the dead to life, and resurrection. Miracles are a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith is necessary in order for miracles to be manifested”

That sounds pretty much a usual sort of description. It might be used by somebody in all sorts of belief traditions. Many traditional Christians may observe that all of what we call natural law is a result of Gods will. A miracle would also be a result of Gods will specialized to a particular instance. But why quibble about what all does or does not qualify as natural law? In my memory Hume does not write theology but did make some observation on why science cannot confirm whether a miracle actually happened.

If one proposes a miracle then people may witness it but science is completely incapable of confirming or denying it. Of course a person can be skeptical about it. Witnesses may have misunderstood the event.

///

I may only be observing that it is highly likely that Mr Peterson understands these basics but does take a different view of whether miracles actually happen.
drumdude
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:38 pm
drumdude wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:57 am



DCP mocks Dawkins for having no understanding of philosophy of religion. Yet DCP cannot even wrap his mind around Hume’s very simple definition of a miracle. Were any of those events a violation of natural law or not, Daniel?

Mormon theology does not allow for violations of natural law. But DCP is either ignorant or willfully misleading, grabbing at any evangelical / Protestant / Catholic argument he can copy and paste, regardless of if it fits into LDS theology or not.
Drumdude, I was puzzled by your comment so googled lds, miracle and an official looking site said:
“A miracle is an extraordinary event caused by the power of God. Miracles are an important element in the work of Jesus Christ. They include healings, restoring the dead to life, and resurrection. Miracles are a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith is necessary in order for miracles to be manifested”

That sounds pretty much a usual sort of description. It might be used by somebody in all sorts of belief traditions.Many traditional Christians may observe that all of what we call natural law is a result of Gods will. A miracle would also be a result of Gods will specialized to a particular instance. But why quibble about what all does or does not qualify as natural law? In my memory Hume does not write theology but did make some observation on why science cannot confirm whether a miracle actually happened.

If one proposes a miracle then people may witness it but science is completely incapable of confirming or denying it. Of course a person can be skeptical about it. Witnesses may have misunderstood the event.

///
I may only be observing that it is highly likely that Mr Peterson understands these basics but does take a different view of whether miracles actually happen.
It’s a shell game. God on a superficial level in Mormonism is identical to the standard Christian God. He is an immortal, omniscient, omnipotent Creator of the Universe.

But Joseph Smith taught us all of that is wrong and God is a man, subject to the laws of Nature. God didn’t create the universe. God is not outside of the Universe. God does not have the power to do whatever he wants like he does within traditional Christianity.

Miracles don’t make any sense within Mormonism. They aren’t miracles, they’re more like advanced alien technology.
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Rivendale
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by Rivendale »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:39 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:38 pm
Drumdude, I was puzzled by your comment so googled lds, miracle and an official looking site said:
“A miracle is an extraordinary event caused by the power of God. Miracles are an important element in the work of Jesus Christ. They include healings, restoring the dead to life, and resurrection. Miracles are a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Faith is necessary in order for miracles to be manifested”

That sounds pretty much a usual sort of description. It might be used by somebody in all sorts of belief traditions.Many traditional Christians may observe that all of what we call natural law is a result of Gods will. A miracle would also be a result of Gods will specialized to a particular instance. But why quibble about what all does or does not qualify as natural law? In my memory Hume does not write theology but did make some observation on why science cannot confirm whether a miracle actually happened.

If one proposes a miracle then people may witness it but science is completely incapable of confirming or denying it. Of course a person can be skeptical about it. Witnesses may have misunderstood the event.

///
I may only be observing that it is highly likely that Mr Peterson understands these basics but does take a different view of whether miracles actually happen.
It’s a shell game. God on a superficial level in Mormonism is identical to the standard Christian God. He is an immortal, omniscient, omnipotent Creator of the Universe.

But Joseph Smith taught us all of that is wrong and God is a man, subject to the laws of Nature. God didn’t create the universe. God is not outside of the Universe. God does not have the power to do whatever he wants like he does within traditional Christianity.

Miracles don’t make any sense within Mormonism. They aren’t miracles, they’re more like advanced alien technology.
This is an important point. Mormonism treats god as limited. What is Elohim going to do when he finds out that his decisions on a limited interaction is violating some larger supreme law? Say I am sorry to the billions of people that were groomed under the philosophy of a limited god?
huckelberry
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by huckelberry »

DG 132: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end, therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue; then shall they be above all because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Having all power does not suggest limited power like a clever space man. I think Joseph Smith takes and continues traditional concept of God and recasts it as an ongoing community instead of a three person community.
Philo Sofee
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by Philo Sofee »

Huckleberry wrote:I may only be observing that it is highly likely that Mr Peterson understands these basics but does take a different view of whether miracles actually happen.

Perhaps Peterson is taking C.S. Lewis's view...
drumdude
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Re: Human testimony is sufficient to defend miracles from science

Post by drumdude »

And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Ne. 2:13)

“Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:18–21).

The Mormon theology gets everything bass-ackwards. God didn’t create the laws, without them there is no God.

In Traditional Christian theology everything is dependent on God because God created everything.

Mormon God is only a god via obedience to these laws.
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