Secular folks should worry.

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MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm
Government and governmental edicts become the norm. Almost religious in its intensity and application to the populace who are slowly becoming like sheep.
We're talking about Florida here, right?

And all of the other places where books are being banned, etc.
That’s actually not what I was referring to. In fact I would say that parents in Florida, Virginia, and other places in the USA are speaking up and making themselves heard. Against this kind of stuff:

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/02/15/ ... ata-shows/

Please take the time to explore the links and books which are presented.

That you would compare Florida and the fight to rid the schools of pornography with governmental/media and interest group influences on ‘sheep’ with the intent to lessen freedoms and diminish free speech is disheartening to say the least.

In your mind you may think this is government overreach. But in the mind of DeSantis and the parents of Florida and other places it’s a matter of protecting children from age inappropriate reading material.

I guess the question could be asked, “What do Secularists think about DeSantis and parents taking a stand?” I wouldn’t hazard to think that secularists, more often than not, are going to have a very different answer than religious folks.

This is just one area/topic that one might think a secular society composed of anti theists (thanks Res Ipsa), and on this thread represented by GenZ, would be worried/concerned with, the future of our children…as innocent children…rather than letting things devolve into a world that becomes more and more relativistic and adults being ‘just OK’ with their children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools. In many cases…at least up until parents rose up…without parent’s knowledge.

What a world. and yet there are adults of a certain stripe that seem to think this is ‘all good’. But I would guess it’s not those that profess belief in God and are actively religious.

My hope, however, is that there are some secular humanist anti theist folks out there that are in support of DeSantis and others who are adamantly opposed to young children being exposed to pornography in public institutions.

When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?

malkie, this is a long answer to your post, but I think it deserved a lengthy response in order to point out that I think you are comparing apples with oranges…to put it nicely.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by malkie »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:54 am
malkie wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm

We're talking about Florida here, right?

And all of the other places where books are being banned, etc.
That’s actually not what I was referring to. In fact I would say that parents in Florida, Virginia, and other places in the USA are speaking up and making themselves heard. Against this kind of stuff:

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/02/15/ ... ata-shows/

Please take the time to explore the links and books which are presented.

That you would compare Florida and the fight to rid the schools of pornography with governmental/media and interest group influences on ‘sheep’ with the intent to lessen freedoms and diminish free speech is disheartening to say the least.

In your mind you may think this is government overreach. But in the mind of DeSantis and the parents of Florida and other places it’s a matter of protecting children from age inappropriate reading material.

I guess the question could be asked, “What do Secularists think about DeSantis and parents taking a stand?” I wouldn’t hazard to think that secularists, more often than not, are going to have a very different answer than religious folks.

This is just one area/topic that one might think a secular society composed of anti theists (thanks Res Ipsa), and on this thread represented by GenZ, would be worried/concerned with, the future of our children…as innocent children…rather than letting things devolve into a world that becomes more and more relativistic and adults being ‘just OK’ with their children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools. In many cases…at least up until parents rose up…without parent’s knowledge.

What a world. and yet there are adults of a certain stripe that seem to think this is ‘all good’. But I would guess it’s not those that profess belief in God and are actively religious.

My hope, however, is that there are some secular humanist anti theist folks out there that are in support of DeSantis and others who are adamantly opposed to young children being exposed to pornography in public institutions.

When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?

malkie, this is a long answer to your post, but I think it deserved a lengthy response in order to point out that I think you are comparing apples with oranges…to put it nicely.

Regards,
MG
You may have a point.

I haven't looked very closely at the materials, but I'll take your word for it that there's something to worry about. Daily Signal is not part of my normal daily news reading - just like I wouldn't go to Fox if I wanted truthful reporting - and I will not be making it a part.

Couple of comments on what you say.

"... children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools." "When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?"

Children learn a lot of stuff at school - from other kids. Are you not aware of that? Better for them to learn properly from a knowledgeable source, I think, than to be restricted to what they learn in the school yard.

I would imagine that sexuality is an accepted part of the school curriculum, pretty much everywhere, not just in Florida. So likely not any "usurping" going on - just the normal functioning of the educational system. Schools "got the idea" because it was put in the curriculum. It's a serious topic, and teachers are usually trained in how to present the material. It may also be the case that a number of parents do not "guide and direct their children" on the topic. However, I would also expect that individual parents may have a right to have their own children exempted from sex ed classes if they choose to educate their children themselves.

Is it worth noting that, although there are some exceptions, of course, such as Utah, the states with the highest rates of teen pregnancies line up very well with the states with the highest rates of "religion" - or, at least, with church attendance? I don't know, and have not investigated the details, but I would guess that these are also the states where parents want schools to leave the teaching of sexuality to them. There may be some benefits after all in having professionals, armed with facts, teaching such an important matter as sexuality.

By the way, I have to admit that I'm not surprised that all of this suddenly came up in Florida during the time that DeSantis is looking at a White House run. One person's sex education is another person's pornography, especially when courting the religious right.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Kishkumen »

Up to a certain point I can understand parents not wanting schools to introduce their kids to material that does not seem age appropriate. Honestly, I was uncomfortable with the degree to which my kids K-12 teachers seemed to want to indoctrinate our kids into their views on this, that, or the other. Our kids ended up parroting some pretty extreme positions on cultural appropriation, for example. Instead of running to the school to complain, we simply discussed these matters with the kids. Teachers have some influence on kids, but not that much. Most of the time I was generally sympathetic with the liberal indoctrinators of the schools, but they lacked subtlety and nuance in a way that was pretty off-putting and required plenty of correction and qualification. I can say that I did not send my kids to school to turn them into Social Justice Warriors, but my reaction, most of the time, was to smile and hug my kids when they told me they were now Social Justice Warriors.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Moksha »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:26 am
... but my reaction, most of the time, was to smile and hug my kids when they told me they were now Social Justice Warriors.
How would such an announcement be handled by TBM parents?
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MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:58 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:54 am
That’s actually not what I was referring to. In fact I would say that parents in Florida, Virginia, and other places in the USA are speaking up and making themselves heard. Against this kind of stuff:

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/02/15/ ... ata-shows/

Please take the time to explore the links and books which are presented.

That you would compare Florida and the fight to rid the schools of pornography with governmental/media and interest group influences on ‘sheep’ with the intent to lessen freedoms and diminish free speech is disheartening to say the least.

In your mind you may think this is government overreach. But in the mind of DeSantis and the parents of Florida and other places it’s a matter of protecting children from age inappropriate reading material.

I guess the question could be asked, “What do Secularists think about DeSantis and parents taking a stand?” I wouldn’t hazard to think that secularists, more often than not, are going to have a very different answer than religious folks.

This is just one area/topic that one might think a secular society composed of anti theists (thanks Res Ipsa), and on this thread represented by GenZ, would be worried/concerned with, the future of our children…as innocent children…rather than letting things devolve into a world that becomes more and more relativistic and adults being ‘just OK’ with their children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools. In many cases…at least up until parents rose up…without parent’s knowledge.

What a world. and yet there are adults of a certain stripe that seem to think this is ‘all good’. But I would guess it’s not those that profess belief in God and are actively religious.

My hope, however, is that there are some secular humanist anti theist folks out there that are in support of DeSantis and others who are adamantly opposed to young children being exposed to pornography in public institutions.

When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?

malkie, this is a long answer to your post, but I think it deserved a lengthy response in order to point out that I think you are comparing apples with oranges…to put it nicely.

Regards,
MG
You may have a point.

I haven't looked very closely at the materials, but I'll take your word for it that there's something to worry about. Daily Signal is not part of my normal daily news reading - just like I wouldn't go to Fox if I wanted truthful reporting - and I will not be making it a part.

Couple of comments on what you say.

"... children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools." "When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?"

Children learn a lot of stuff at school - from other kids. Are you not aware of that? Better for them to learn properly from a knowledgeable source, I think, than to be restricted to what they learn in the school yard.

I would imagine that sexuality is an accepted part of the school curriculum, pretty much everywhere, not just in Florida. So likely not any "usurping" going on - just the normal functioning of the educational system. Schools "got the idea" because it was put in the curriculum. It's a serious topic, and teachers are usually trained in how to present the material. It may also be the case that a number of parents do not "guide and direct their children" on the topic. However, I would also expect that individual parents may have a right to have their own children exempted from sex ed classes if they choose to educate their children themselves.

Is it worth noting that, although there are some exceptions, of course, such as Utah, the states with the highest rates of teen pregnancies line up very well with the states with the highest rates of "religion" - or, at least, with church attendance? I don't know, and have not investigated the details, but I would guess that these are also the states where parents want schools to leave the teaching of sexuality to them. There may be some benefits after all in having professionals, armed with facts, teaching such an important matter as sexuality.

By the way, I have to admit that I'm not surprised that all of this suddenly came up in Florida during the time that DeSantis is looking at a White House run. One person's sex education is another person's pornography, especially when courting the religious right.
As I predicted. What I’m hearing so far is it’s “just OK” and “it’s all good”.

And, hey, if you didn’t notice or chose to ignore it, the major thrust of my post was to point out not only the teaching that is going on in the schools BUT THE PORNOGRAPHY in the libraries in BOOKS that are available to the students. Again, go to the link provided and dig deep. Look at what is IN the books which have been found in Florida schools and elsewhere. It’s disgusting.

Innocent kids. Caught in the crosshairs.

They’ll learn it out on the playground anyway?

Give. Me. A. Break.

Anyway, so far I’m seeing just the response to my post that I would expect from secular folks that question religious institutions and activity and would like to see a secular and non religious world…a utopia of their own making.

A world without God.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by toon »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:26 am
Up to a certain point I can understand parents not wanting schools to introduce their kids to material that does not seem age appropriate. Honestly, I was uncomfortable with the degree to which my kids K-12 teachers seemed to want to indoctrinate our kids into their views on this, that, or the other. Our kids ended up parroting some pretty extreme positions on cultural appropriation, for example. Instead of running to the school to complain, we simply discussed these matters with the kids. Teachers have some influence on kids, but not that much. Most of the time I was generally sympathetic with the liberal indoctrinators of the schools, but they lacked subtlety and nuance in a way that was pretty off-putting and required plenty of correction and qualification. I can say that I did not send my kids to school to turn them into Social Justice Warriors, but my reaction, most of the time, was to smile and hug my kids when they told me they were now Social Justice Warriors.
You make some great points.

I never worried (or still worry) much about what my kids were exposed to in school. What we taught and discussed in the home was sufficient to give them the tools to evaluate what they learned elsewhere, at least that’s what we hoped and tried to do. And I also always like that my kids were exposed to ideas and norms that may have been different and challenging. My goal was never to raise kids who were identical copies to me. I wanted to raise kids who had enough confidence to plot their own course. And I like that my two now grown up kids can disagree or agree with me on all kinds of issues. We do that all the time, and it is so enjoyable.

But if we have to be simple about this, I’d choose the “liberal/woke/critical race theory” indoctrination portrayed in schools any day over the stereotypical TBM indoctrination any day. I’m also glad that’s the choice.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:54 am
malkie wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 pm

We're talking about Florida here, right?

And all of the other places where books are being banned, etc.
That’s actually not what I was referring to. In fact I would say that parents in Florida, Virginia, and other places in the USA are speaking up and making themselves heard. Against this kind of stuff:

https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/02/15/ ... ata-shows/

Please take the time to explore the links and books which are presented.

That you would compare Florida and the fight to rid the schools of pornography with governmental/media and interest group influences on ‘sheep’ with the intent to lessen freedoms and diminish free speech is disheartening to say the least.

In your mind you may think this is government overreach. But in the mind of DeSantis and the parents of Florida and other places it’s a matter of protecting children from age inappropriate reading material.

I guess the question could be asked, “What do Secularists think about DeSantis and parents taking a stand?” I wouldn’t hazard to think that secularists, more often than not, are going to have a very different answer than religious folks.

This is just one area/topic that one might think a secular society composed of anti theists (thanks Res Ipsa), and on this thread represented by GenZ, would be worried/concerned with, the future of our children…as innocent children…rather than letting things devolve into a world that becomes more and more relativistic and adults being ‘just OK’ with their children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools. In many cases…at least up until parents rose up…without parent’s knowledge.

What a world. and yet there are adults of a certain stripe that seem to think this is ‘all good’. But I would guess it’s not those that profess belief in God and are actively religious.

My hope, however, is that there are some secular humanist anti theist folks out there that are in support of DeSantis and others who are adamantly opposed to young children being exposed to pornography in public institutions.

When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?

malkie, this is a long answer to your post, but I think it deserved a lengthy response in order to point out that I think you are comparing apples with oranges…to put it nicely.

Regards,
MG
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Morley
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Thank you, MG. You've told everyone where you stand on Florida's governmental ban on books, now will you respond to this post by malkie?

malkie wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:23 am
Perhaps it's people (both religious and secular) in the US who should worry - and think about how much more civil a society we have here in Canada, closest neighbour to the US. I've tried not to cherry-pick too much - but, hey - I'm Canadian!

Here are some comparisons of Canadian societal measures compared to the US:
  • lower major crime rates - especially gun violence
  • lower rate of incarceration
  • higher life expectancies
  • mostly better healthcare outcomes for lower total spending
  • very much lower maternal death rate
  • lower poverty rate
  • lower rate of death due to COVID-19
And look at how religious we are not:
  • smaller % think that religion is “very important” to them
  • smaller % go to church regularly
  • larger % are atheist or agnostic
Of course there are other measures in which the US comes out "better" than Canada, but overall I think we do pretty well.

ETA: % of taxpayers donating to charity is approximately twice as high in Canada vs US - not bad for the secular vs religious folks!
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:26 am
Up to a certain point I can understand parents not wanting schools to introduce their kids to material that does not seem age appropriate. Honestly, I was uncomfortable with the degree to which my kids K-12 teachers seemed to want to indoctrinate our kids into their views on this, that, or the other. Our kids ended up parroting some pretty extreme positions on cultural appropriation, for example. Instead of running to the school to complain, we simply discussed these matters with the kids. Teachers have some influence on kids, but not that much. Most of the time I was generally sympathetic with the liberal indoctrinators of the schools, but they lacked subtlety and nuance in a way that was pretty off-putting and required plenty of correction and qualification. I can say that I did not send my kids to school to turn them into Social Justice Warriors, but my reaction, most of the time, was to smile and hug my kids when they told me they were now Social Justice Warriors.
Thank you, Reverend, for the view from on the ground.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by malkie »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:23 am
malkie wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:58 am
You may have a point.

I haven't looked very closely at the materials, but I'll take your word for it that there's something to worry about. Daily Signal is not part of my normal daily news reading - just like I wouldn't go to Fox if I wanted truthful reporting - and I will not be making it a part.

Couple of comments on what you say.

"... children being exposed to variant forms of sexual behavior and practice (using crude and provocative language) in schools." "When and where in the hell did schools ever get the idea that they had the right to usurp the responsibility and innate right and privilege of parents to guide and direct their children in such an important matter as sexuality?"

Children learn a lot of stuff at school - from other kids. Are you not aware of that? Better for them to learn properly from a knowledgeable source, I think, than to be restricted to what they learn in the school yard.

I would imagine that sexuality is an accepted part of the school curriculum, pretty much everywhere, not just in Florida. So likely not any "usurping" going on - just the normal functioning of the educational system. Schools "got the idea" because it was put in the curriculum. It's a serious topic, and teachers are usually trained in how to present the material. It may also be the case that a number of parents do not "guide and direct their children" on the topic. However, I would also expect that individual parents may have a right to have their own children exempted from sex ed classes if they choose to educate their children themselves.

Is it worth noting that, although there are some exceptions, of course, such as Utah, the states with the highest rates of teen pregnancies line up very well with the states with the highest rates of "religion" - or, at least, with church attendance? I don't know, and have not investigated the details, but I would guess that these are also the states where parents want schools to leave the teaching of sexuality to them. There may be some benefits after all in having professionals, armed with facts, teaching such an important matter as sexuality.

By the way, I have to admit that I'm not surprised that all of this suddenly came up in Florida during the time that DeSantis is looking at a White House run. One person's sex education is another person's pornography, especially when courting the religious right.
As I predicted. What I’m hearing so far is it’s “just OK” and “it’s all good”.

And, hey, if you didn’t notice or chose to ignore it, the major thrust of my post was to point out not only the teaching that is going on in the schools BUT THE PORNOGRAPHY in the libraries in BOOKS that are available to the students. Again, go to the link provided and dig deep. Look at what is IN the books which have been found in Florida schools and elsewhere. It’s disgusting.

Innocent kids. Caught in the crosshairs.

They’ll learn it out on the playground anyway?

Give. Me. A. Break.

Anyway, so far I’m seeing just the response to my post that I would expect from secular folks that question religious institutions and activity and would like to see a secular and non religious world…a utopia of their own making.

A world without God.

Regards,
MG
OK - here's your break, as requested.

I did notice - and did concede that you may have a point. And, unfortunately, there may be some harm. But like in a lot of other things, some of which I expect you would support, there is almost always bad mixed in with the good. I also agree that there may be a good case for removing some books.

However, I thought that there were other points from your comment that were worth noting, and that I responded to, but you chose to ignore in your reply.

For example, do you still maintain that schools just up and usurp parents' rights by teaching sex ed? Should states be slapping schools down for daring to teach it all on their own, without so much as a 'by your leave'? You must be aware of the situation in your state, right? I believe yours is an 'opt-in' state for sex ed. But since you were a teacher I expect that you will know better than I do, and will correct me if necessary.

You may also be aware that, in your state, a bill was recently defeated in committee that would have had sex ed include information about informed consent, sexual violence, and coercion. In your state, sexual violence occurs at a rate above the national average. One might think that such a religious state, where parents can choose to teach their children about sex, instead of in school, would be a model of sexual propriety.

Do you think that parents are generally better equipped, and willing, to teach their children about sex? Some may well be, but I suspect that a lot are not competent to teach comprehensive fact-based sex ed. It's noticeable that here's a broad correlation between more religious parts of the US and higher rates of teen pregnancy, and STDs. I may be mistaken, but I believe that we would also find that these are the areas with lower rates of comprehensive sex ed in schools. So perhaps parents, in general, are not able to do a better job than the schools after all. Perhaps that's probably why many state departments of education require sex ed in schools.

And, by the way, I believe that we already have a world without god.

If you want to see societies dominated by religion, there are plenty to choose from in this world. Are they your ideal?
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