Amazing Grace to you are saved by Grace after all you do.

[yellowstone123]

Sometimes I don’t think Mormons know the cleansing power of grace.

It must mean something to them as at the Twin Towers memorial they sang the song.
The words are some of the most beautiful written. I’ve never heard in sang in sacrament meeting.

Same with Count Thou Fount of Every Blessing sung by the BYU choir in 1982. The church occasionally puts its up in conferences as its on video. It’s on YouTube and nonmembers write on comments that it's the most beautiful rendition they ever heard. But I never sang that song in Church. Just reading the words touched my heart. A fallen person is restored.

Having those two songs listed to sing in sacrament meeting would be very special. It might have been my Stake where they didn’t sing them, but they are beautiful songs.

[yellowstone123]

Written by John Newton.

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed
Through many dangers, toils, and snares
I have already come
This grace that brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home
When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright, shining as the sun
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun
Amazing grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see

[yellowstone123]

Lyrics by Chris Rice.

Come Thou fount of every blessing
Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Streams of mercy never ceasing
Call for songs of loudest praise
Teach me some melodious sonnet
Sung by flaming tongues above
Praise the mount, I'm fixed upon it
Mount of Thy redeeming love
Here I raise my Ebenezer
Here by Thy great help I've come
And I hope by Thy good pleasure
Safely to arrive at home
Jesus sought me when a stranger
Wandering from the fold of God
He to rescue me from danger
Interposed His precious blood
(Precious blood)
Oh, that day when freed from sinning
I shall see Thy lovely face
Clothed then in blood washed linen
How I'll sing Thy sovereign grace
Come my Lord, no longer tarry
Take my ransomed soul away
Send Thine angels now to carry
Me to realms of endless days
Oh, to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be
Let Thy goodness like a fetter
Bind my wandering heart to Thee
Prone to wander, Lord I feel it
Prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart, oh take and seal it
Seal it for Thy courts above
Here's my heart
Oh take and seal it
Seal it for Thy courts above

[Gadianton]

Mormons don't know the saving power of grace any more or any less than anybody else, since there is no such thing as salvation in the first place let alone salvation by the grace of a deity. Perhaps psychologically, Mormons are prone to feel higher expectations. My right-wing friend's best sin stories are from after he "got saved". No pressure on him to be good.

I've always wondered why the apologists are so desperate to sound like grace believing Christians. So what if you're not? "After all you can do" makes a whole lot more sense to me if there were a God. But oh no, they come completely unglued if you don't address them as grace-believing Christians.

There really isn't a practical difference between the Mormon version and the Christian version of grace, it's like going to different accountants who cook the books differently but it results in the same tax.

A striking way to put it comes from Ed Decker, who wrote in (probably) the first anti-Mormon tract I'd ever read that Christians don't work to get saved, they work because they are saved. But dig deeper, and it's all about the doctrine of election. The elect are saved and the non-elect go to hell. Jonathan Edwards clarifies that Decker's version is nice to have, but not a must, a person could be elect and not exhibit any outward appearances of election and be saved. The typical account of a "backslidden Christian" is that it's possible (not guaranteed) that such people were never saved in the first place because they simply weren't one of the elect.

And so what it comes down to for most, Christian or Mormon, is to work it out so that people who act appropriately in your estimation are saved and those who don't go to hell. From the Decker version (and I've heard this from Calvary Chapel and others), committing some atrocious sins or following a rival pastor may result in hellfire even though these folks said the salvation prayer and consider themselves saved. Biden is a Christian and Trump isn't, the likelihood Biden said the salvation prayer at some point in his life is far higher than Trump. How many Christians are going to acknowledge Biden is likely saved while Trump probably isn't?

The more thorough theology of Edwards takes it to the next level where one's preferences can't load the dice so easily. At that level, the objective is less about castigating people you don't like, and more about hedging your bets so that your theology is unfalsifiable. In other words, no matter how anybody acts as a Christian or otherwise, literally nothing counts as evidence against the Christian message.

[yellowstone123]

Thanks Gadianton. I do think that a Mormon youth would be less likely to tell the truth to the clergy than a protestant one. The Mormon one would go through a disciplinary hearing that the protestant one couldn't even fathom, so the Protestant one would likely tell the truth of what's been happening in his life. One with held truth where the other told it because of his beliefs about grace. I enjoyed your thoughts.

[huckelberry]

Mormons don't know the saving power of grace any more or any less than anybody else, since there is no such thing as salvation in the first place let alone salvation by the grace of a deity. Perhaps psychologically, Mormons are prone to feel higher expectations. My right-wing friend's best sin stories are from after he "got saved". No pressure on him to be good.

I've always wondered why the apologists are so desperate to sound like grace believing Christians. So what if you're not? "After all you can do" makes a whole lot more sense to me if there were a God. But oh no, they come completely unglued if you don't address them as grace-believing Christians.

There really isn't a practical difference between the Mormon version and the Christian version of grace, it's like going to different accountants who cook the books differently but it results in the same tax.

A striking way to put it comes from Ed Decker, who wrote in (probably) the first anti-Mormon tract I'd ever read that Christians don't work to get saved, they work because they are saved. But dig deeper, and it's all about the doctrine of election. The elect are saved and the non-elect go to hell. Jonathan Edwards clarifies that Decker's version is nice to have, but not a must, a person could be elect and not exhibit any outward appearances of election and be saved. The typical account of a "backslidden Christian" is that it's possible (not guaranteed) that such people were never saved in the first place because they simply weren't one of the elect.

And so what it comes down to for most, Christian or Mormon, is to work it out so that people who act appropriately in your estimation are saved and those who don't go to hell. From the Decker version (and I've heard this from Calvary Chapel and others), committing some atrocious sins or following a rival pastor may result in hellfire even though these folks said the salvation prayer and consider themselves saved. Biden is a Christian and Trump isn't, the likelihood Biden said the salvation prayer at some point in his life is far higher than Trump. How many Christians are going to acknowledge Biden is likely saved while Trump probably isn't?

The more thorough theology of Edwards takes it to the next level where one's preferences can't load the dice so easily. At that level, the objective is less about castigating people you don't like, and more about hedging your bets so that your theology is unfalsifiable. In other words, no matter how anybody acts as a Christian or otherwise, literally nothing counts as evidence against the Christian message.

Gadiantom,
I gathered from Edwards that his concern was the growth of charity not so much determining which of your neighbors are going to hell.

Is a large part of this picture coming from some right winger taking pride in his "sin stories" ? Do those stories keep him closer to his god appointed leader Trump who has such skill at sin?

Speaking as a Christian it is clear that Biden is likely to go to heaven and Trump lies.Perhaps there is heaven even for him after a difficult purgatory.

In much of Christianity, like Edwards, God calls people ,invites them. In Mormonism people started the right way in the preexistence. There are a variety of ways these pictures can overlap. I do not like people taking pride in the purity of their grace theories.

[msnobody]

I love when we sing Come Thy Fount of Every Blessing in church. It is a beautiful hymn.

[drumdude]

I’ve discovered in my YouTube comment section many Mormons who are convinced their salvation depends on the amount of tithing given to the LDS corporation.

It’s beyond depressing. I can’t imagine anything more antithetical to Jesus’s message he so desperately tried to get people to understand during his time on earth. 2000 years later and most still have no idea what he was talking about.

[yellowstone123]

Just for the record I don’t believe in a burning hell. I believe in a very warm loving presence for 99.9 of those who came to a broken earth and society.