If plates then God

[Res Ipsa]

He was working hard on some in real life projects and expressed frustration about spending time here, only to get the crap trolled out of him by MG.

That’s an interesting expression. I would not use the word “trolled”, however. I would replace it with any one of a number of other words.

Regards,
MG

Of course you wouldn't.

[Gadianton]

Well no they weren’t. Because there was no ‘they’ in the instance of Joseph translating the book of Moses. But the account in regards to the Book of Mormon translation makes it very clear there were plates. I’m sure you’re not saying Book of Mormon=plates so it goes to say that Book of Moses=plates.

Indeed. This is what we call circular reasoning. Something you've mastered.

He’s a smart guy. I’d say we ought to take him at his word

I think you may be getting too wrapped up defending yourself for your deplorable behavior toward Grindael in the past, as your comments tonight are especially poorly thought out.

Disagreeing with somebody's theory about something doesn't amount to "not taking them at their word" except for in the most facile sense. The physics establishment didn't simply take Einstein at his word that E=MC^2.

by the way, you quoted one of my comments as coming from Kishkumen. Let's not tarnish his reputation like that.

[Res Ipsa]

Well no they weren’t. Because there was no ‘they’ in the instance of Joseph translating the book of Moses. But the account in regards to the Book of Mormon translation makes it very clear there were plates. I’m sure you’re not saying Book of Mormon=plates so it goes to say that Book of Moses=plates.

Indeed. This is what we call circular reasoning. Something you've mastered.

He’s a smart guy. I’d say we ought to take him at his word

I think you may be getting too wrapped up defending yourself for your deplorable behavior toward Grindael in the past, as your comments tonight are especially poorly thought out.

Disagreeing with somebody's theory about something doesn't amount to "not taking them at their word" except for in the most facile sense. The physics establishment didn't simply take Einstein at his word that E=MC^2.

by the way, you quoted one of my comments as coming from Kishkumen. Let's not tarnish his reputation like that.

What's amazing is that MG made the exact arguments he made in this thread about the plates back in 2017, when Grindael schooled him what he was claiming about the "witness" accounts. He even used the same article that he linked to in this thread as his "evidence." He thanked Grindael for educating him about the witnesses. Must be amnesia.

[Res Ipsa]

..My recollection is that MG got under Grindael's skin in that thread and Grindael (justifiably, in my opinion) went off on him. He was working hard on some in real life projects and expressed frustration about spending time here, only to get the crap trolled out of him by MG. I don't recall him ever expressing the belief that MG (an anonymous nobody) was damaging or could even damage his reputation. Grindael was, in my recollection, very confident in and proud of the reputation he had built. Seeing MG as any kind of threat (as opposed to an annoyance) is so counter to who he was that I would really be surprised to see him describe MG as a threat of any kind.

My recollection is that he did take either a break or a period of reduced posting after that encounter, but he had previously warned that he might be scarce because he wanted to concentrate on his RL projects. My recollection is also that, at some point, he said that MG hadn't chased him away from the board.

After the break (or whatever), he returned to the board. MG tried the same tactics on him, and he went right at MG and repeatedly slapped him into next week. He called him "mental" (and not in a nice sense). He called him "weasel" until MG ran to Shades to get him to stop. In the last interaction between the two that I can remember, he kicked MG into next month.

Trump wishes he was half the counter-puncher that Grindael was.

That's my recollection: after what you are recalling as a farewell letter, Grindael posted hundreds more times here and dished out to MG everything MG threw at him, and then some.

I have tons of respect for Johnny. He'd forgotten more about LDS history than I've ever known. He had an amazing mind for mastering and assembling details scattered throughout records and putting them together in a compelling narrative. Memory is fallible, and I have to sort through lots of posts (did I mention he was a prolific writer?) and am fairly confident I'm remembering some pieces wrong. But I think it does Johnny a great disservice to portray him as a poor victim of MG.

I think Khan's quotation of Moby Dick gives a better sense of his interactions here with MG:

“…To the last, I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart, I stab at thee; for hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”

Although I would replace with "hate" with "contempt."

I agree with your assessment of the troll.

To clarify, in my opinion no matter how successful one is at shutting down a troll, the troll's actions need to be called out for the inexcusable behavior they are.

I was especially entertained by your definition of the troll being "slapped into next week," and "kicked into next month."

I have no objection to calling out trolling. I'm glad you were entertained.

[MG 2.0]

Well no they weren’t. Because there was no ‘they’ in the instance of Joseph translating the book of Moses. But the account in regards to the Book of Mormon translation makes it very clear there were plates. I’m sure you’re not saying Book of Mormon=plates so it goes to say that Book of Moses=plates.

Indeed. This is what we call circular reasoning. Something you've mastered.

I suppose I’m a bit puzzled as to why you’re using circular reasoning to prove your point.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

I believe that this thread is the last epic confrontation between MG and Johnny: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=152597 The main antagonists were Maksutov and MG. And, right from the first post, MG was in ad hom mode:

What have you been learning recently...or reading recently...that would lead you to believe Joseph was "head pimp" and was simply a sexual predator? Would you be willing to share? You've come across the 'smoking gun' recently? Something above and beyond what has already been discussed in many venues of scholarship, published works, etc.?

You seem to have reached critical mass last night as you decided to start a new thread. Or were you just drinking a bit much?

The topic is polygamy, and Mak starts dropping historical evidence to refute MGs attempts to defend Smith. Then Johnny joins the fray, and adds a ton of historical evidence.

After Johnny drops a pretty awesome load of historical evidence on polygamy and is complimented by a couple of folks, he says this:

]My friend Mak is a great historian. I'm just a guest on this thread, and glad he's posting about all this and that I can add a bit here and there to keep you all apprised of the real history of Joseph Smith. I keep learning new things all the time, and it all goes into my head and will be spouted out at a later time as I digest and contemplate it. This place is the best, and Shades is a genius. Long after I am gone, this place will be the destination of the curious, the needy, the hurt, the believer and critic of all things Mormon. It will be the icon while all others will fade and be forgotten. Mark my words. Our contributions will live on, and future generations will see the Mopologists for what they are, sad defenders of a dying dinosaur. (The Mormon Hierarchy).

I almost let the trolls here get the best of me, and I assure you all, that will never happen again. I will keep posting, I guaran-damned-tee it.

viewtopic.php?p=2704162#p2704162

This is two years after he took his break starting in October 2017. Here's MG's response:

Mark my words. You highly over rate/over state the effects of your doings as anti-Mormons and detractors of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the CofJCofLDS will continue to fill the earth before the Second Coming of the Savior. The lowly in heart and meek of the earth will come into God's Kingdom. You and your ilk/kind will melt away as the morning dew and there will be nothing of any value left to see except for some broken testimonies and hearts of those that have left the church.

As I've said before, you and your kind are a necessary part of the 'program' in that it is needful that there is opposition in all things so that folks are left to either choose to believe in Jesus Christ/Heavenly Father and adherence to gospel ordinances/commandments or go their own way. Faith and belief in God is an act of agency which entails real choices.

I don't count myself as a Mopologist as much as I count myself as a disciple of Christ and seeker of truth. And that seems to bother you to no end. For the times that I may have offended/hurt you, I apologize. I could have been better.

And by the way, if the Apostles and Prophets are indeed called by Jesus Christ, they're not going anywhere as did the dinosaurs. In fact, they will hand over the kingdom over to Christ when He returns.

Carry on, as you must.

Regards,
MG

And here is Johnny's response to MG:

You accuse people of all kinds of evil and give your "regards"? Hypocrite much? That's not very Christlike. In fact, your constant pontificating and empty platitudes to those on this board are also phony and also not what Jesus advocated people to be like. In all regards, you fail the test as any kind of Christian. You have a cult mentality (unlike other Mormons who don't) and would have been right there with Jo's Danites burning down the homes of the Missourians because he asked you to. You give other sincere Mormons a bad name. You would do or say anything, to protect YOUR crazy, made up cultish beliefs. You are a complete moron and can't stand the fact that you don't understand Mormon History, can't comprehend who Smith really was, and want to believe in leaders that are as hypocritical and empty of any power as you are. In fact, your "priesthood" is a joke, because it is based on lies and made up B.S..

Your leaders (past and present) have never been able to show anyone they have any power to speak for God, act for God, or have God's power as those who were written about in the Bible. You have men like Parley Pratt (an "Apostle" like Peter so they said) cursing people and winding up dead themselves, and his curse was as empty as the vacuous rhetoric you sling here. Prophesied by that same "priesthood" that if the "gentiles" were not all destroyed in 5 to 50 years from 1838, then the Book of Mormon was false. Well, it is. It's a joke, like what you post here. A nineteenth century con that you swallowed, hook, line and sinker. And I can and have posted proof after proof of the fraud you peddle, and you just can't stand it, so you have to make up lies about me and troll me and claim I'm going to melt away. And my dog Toto, too!

On this forum, I'm gonna be on you like fleas on a dog if you spout your apologetic drivel here. That's what it is and that's all you do.

by the way, Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, stupid. He hated the moneychangers and that is all you and your leaders care about. They misuse the money, pay themselves handsomely and never work at anything and have since the beginning when Smith set it up that way. Monson was a leech that milked the church his whole life. An insincere phony that Jesus would have laughed at and told to give up all his riches and really act like a disciple of God. But they don't do that, they wall themselves off in their condos and houses and pontificate... just like you do. Nothing positive will ever come from you or anything you do here. And everyone knows it. What bothers me to no end is your lies and hypocrisy and false conclusions. And I have the evidence and the discipline to know what and where it is and how to share it, you do not. You are a lazy dog who can only cut and paste and link to other people's work because you can't string two coherent sentences together without contradicting yourself or something you posted five minutes before. Lies built on lies and a Mopologist to the core.

My work will be here forever and be lauded (as it is now) as good, solid research while your links were disappear and the crap you copy and paste will be laughed at by future generations. I love how you can judge others when Christ told you not to. You claim to follow Jesus but always do what he says not to. Worship men, love money, lie, judge, live in hypocrisy the list goes on and on and I'm pretty sure that Jesus did not like that crap and so it is you who will be out of luck if you ever meet up with him. He'll be like who the “F” is this anonymous troll? “F” off, dirtbag, I never knew you. Yup, those will be Jesus' exact words. He told me to tell you that. Lowly in heart? You? The jokes just keep coming.... Oh, and Jesus said your priesthood is a joke too. He laughed and laughed about it because he said you know it is, but won't admit it to yourself. He's an amazing guy.

Bring it, dirtbag.

[Image of sandals shaking off the dust]

MG responds with crickets.

That's the Johnny I remember.

[Marcus]

I believe that this thread is the last epic confrontation between MG and Johnny: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=152597 The main antagonists were Maksutov and MG. And, right from the first post, MG was in ad hom mode:

What have you been learning recently...or reading recently...that would lead you to believe Joseph was "head pimp" and was simply a sexual predator? Would you be willing to share? You've come across the 'smoking gun' recently? Something above and beyond what has already been discussed in many venues of scholarship, published works, etc.?

You seem to have reached critical mass last night as you decided to start a new thread. Or were you just drinking a bit much?

The topic is polygamy, and Mak starts dropping historical evidence to refute MGs attempts to defend Smith. Then Johnny joins the fray, and adds a ton of historical evidence.

After Johnny drops a pretty awesome load of historical evidence on polygamy and is complimented by a couple of folks, he says this:

]My friend Mak is a great historian. I'm just a guest on this thread, and glad he's posting about all this and that I can add a bit here and there to keep you all apprised of the real history of Joseph Smith. I keep learning new things all the time, and it all goes into my head and will be spouted out at a later time as I digest and contemplate it. This place is the best, and Shades is a genius. Long after I am gone, this place will be the destination of the curious, the needy, the hurt, the believer and critic of all things Mormon. It will be the icon while all others will fade and be forgotten. Mark my words. Our contributions will live on, and future generations will see the Mopologists for what they are, sad defenders of a dying dinosaur. (The Mormon Hierarchy).

I almost let the trolls here get the best of me, and I assure you all, that will never happen again. I will keep posting, I guaran-damned-tee it.

viewtopic.php?p=2704162#p2704162

This is two years after he took his break starting in October 2017. Here's MG's response:

Mark my words. You highly over rate/over state the effects of your doings as anti-Mormons and detractors of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the CofJCofLDS will continue to fill the earth before the Second Coming of the Savior. The lowly in heart and meek of the earth will come into God's Kingdom. You and your ilk/kind will melt away as the morning dew and there will be nothing of any value left to see except for some broken testimonies and hearts of those that have left the church.

As I've said before, you and your kind are a necessary part of the 'program' in that it is needful that there is opposition in all things so that folks are left to either choose to believe in Jesus Christ/Heavenly Father and adherence to gospel ordinances/commandments or go their own way. Faith and belief in God is an act of agency which entails real choices.

I don't count myself as a Mopologist as much as I count myself as a disciple of Christ and seeker of truth. And that seems to bother you to no end. For the times that I may have offended/hurt you, I apologize. I could have been better.

And by the way, if the Apostles and Prophets are indeed called by Jesus Christ, they're not going anywhere as did the dinosaurs. In fact, they will hand over the kingdom over to Christ when He returns.

Carry on, as you must.

Regards,
MG

And here is Johnny's response to MG:

You accuse people of all kinds of evil and give your "regards"? Hypocrite much? That's not very Christlike. In fact, your constant pontificating and empty platitudes to those on this board are also phony and also not what Jesus advocated people to be like. In all regards, you fail the test as any kind of Christian. You have a cult mentality (unlike other Mormons who don't) and would have been right there with Jo's Danites burning down the homes of the Missourians because he asked you to. You give other sincere Mormons a bad name. You would do or say anything, to protect YOUR crazy, made up cultish beliefs. You are a complete moron and can't stand the fact that you don't understand Mormon History, can't comprehend who Smith really was, and want to believe in leaders that are as hypocritical and empty of any power as you are. In fact, your "priesthood" is a joke, because it is based on lies and made up B.S..

Your leaders (past and present) have never been able to show anyone they have any power to speak for God, act for God, or have God's power as those who were written about in the Bible. You have men like Parley Pratt (an "Apostle" like Peter so they said) cursing people and winding up dead themselves, and his curse was as empty as the vacuous rhetoric you sling here. Prophesied by that same "priesthood" that if the "gentiles" were not all destroyed in 5 to 50 years from 1838, then the Book of Mormon was false. Well, it is. It's a joke, like what you post here. A nineteenth century con that you swallowed, hook, line and sinker. And I can and have posted proof after proof of the fraud you peddle, and you just can't stand it, so you have to make up lies about me and troll me and claim I'm going to melt away. And my dog Toto, too!

On this forum, I'm gonna be on you like fleas on a dog if you spout your apologetic drivel here. That's what it is and that's all you do.

by the way, Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, stupid. He hated the moneychangers and that is all you and your leaders care about. They misuse the money, pay themselves handsomely and never work at anything and have since the beginning when Smith set it up that way. Monson was a leech that milked the church his whole life. An insincere phony that Jesus would have laughed at and told to give up all his riches and really act like a disciple of God. But they don't do that, they wall themselves off in their condos and houses and pontificate... just like you do. Nothing positive will ever come from you or anything you do here. And everyone knows it. What bothers me to no end is your lies and hypocrisy and false conclusions. And I have the evidence and the discipline to know what and where it is and how to share it, you do not. You are a lazy dog who can only cut and paste and link to other people's work because you can't string two coherent sentences together without contradicting yourself or something you posted five minutes before. Lies built on lies and a Mopologist to the core.

My work will be here forever and be lauded (as it is now) as good, solid research while your links were disappear and the crap you copy and paste will be laughed at by future generations. I love how you can judge others when Christ told you not to. You claim to follow Jesus but always do what he says not to. Worship men, love money, lie, judge, live in hypocrisy the list goes on and on and I'm pretty sure that Jesus did not like that crap and so it is you who will be out of luck if you ever meet up with him. He'll be like who the “F” is this anonymous troll? “F” off, dirtbag, I never knew you. Yup, those will be Jesus' exact words. He told me to tell you that. Lowly in heart? You? The jokes just keep coming.... Oh, and Jesus said your priesthood is a joke too. He laughed and laughed about it because he said you know it is, but won't admit it to yourself. He's an amazing guy.

Bring it, dirtbag.

[Image of sandals shaking off the dust]

MG responds with crickets.

That's the Johnny I remember.

That is a great exchange, and I agree, a great memory to keep on top.

[Fence Sitter]

If MG then trolls

[MG 2.0]

And here is Johnny's response to MG:

You accuse people of all kinds of evil and give your "regards"? Hypocrite much? That's not very Christlike. In fact, your constant pontificating and empty platitudes to those on this board are also phony and also not what Jesus advocated people to be like. In all regards, you fail the test as any kind of Christian. You have a cult mentality (unlike other Mormons who don't) and would have been right there with Jo's Danites burning down the homes of the Missourians because he asked you to. You give other sincere Mormons a bad name. You would do or say anything, to protect YOUR crazy, made up cultish beliefs. You are a complete moron and can't stand the fact that you don't understand Mormon History, can't comprehend who Smith really was, and want to believe in leaders that are as hypocritical and empty of any power as you are. In fact, your "priesthood" is a joke, because it is based on lies and made up B.S..

Your leaders (past and present) have never been able to show anyone they have any power to speak for God, act for God, or have God's power as those who were written about in the Bible. You have men like Parley Pratt (an "Apostle" like Peter so they said) cursing people and winding up dead themselves, and his curse was as empty as the vacuous rhetoric you sling here. Prophesied by that same "priesthood" that if the "gentiles" were not all destroyed in 5 to 50 years from 1838, then the Book of Mormon was false. Well, it is. It's a joke, like what you post here. A nineteenth century con that you swallowed, hook, line and sinker. And I can and have posted proof after proof of the fraud you peddle, and you just can't stand it, so you have to make up lies about me and troll me and claim I'm going to melt away. And my dog Toto, too!

On this forum, I'm gonna be on you like fleas on a dog if you spout your apologetic drivel here. That's what it is and that's all you do.

by the way, Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, stupid. He hated the moneychangers and that is all you and your leaders care about. They misuse the money, pay themselves handsomely and never work at anything and have since the beginning when Smith set it up that way. Monson was a leech that milked the church his whole life. An insincere phony that Jesus would have laughed at and told to give up all his riches and really act like a disciple of God. But they don't do that, they wall themselves off in their condos and houses and pontificate... just like you do. Nothing positive will ever come from you or anything you do here. And everyone knows it. What bothers me to no end is your lies and hypocrisy and false conclusions. And I have the evidence and the discipline to know what and where it is and how to share it, you do not. You are a lazy dog who can only cut and paste and link to other people's work because you can't string two coherent sentences together without contradicting yourself or something you posted five minutes before. Lies built on lies and a Mopologist to the core.

My work will be here forever and be lauded (as it is now) as good, solid research while your links were disappear and the crap you copy and paste will be laughed at by future generations. I love how you can judge others when Christ told you not to. You claim to follow Jesus but always do what he says not to. Worship men, love money, lie, judge, live in hypocrisy the list goes on and on and I'm pretty sure that Jesus did not like that crap and so it is you who will be out of luck if you ever meet up with him. He'll be like who the “F” is this anonymous troll? “F” off, dirtbag, I never knew you. Yup, those will be Jesus' exact words. He told me to tell you that. Lowly in heart? You? The jokes just keep coming.... Oh, and Jesus said your priesthood is a joke too. He laughed and laughed about it because he said you know it is, but won't admit it to yourself. He's an amazing guy.

Bring it, dirtbag.

[Image of sandals shaking off the dust]

MG responds with crickets.

That's the Johnny I remember.

Yeah, that’s the Grindael I remember also. If I didn’t respond to this post it was only because I felt he was losing it and over the top. It didn’t deserve a response.

The bolded language I’ve highlighted was pretty much par for the course. It gives viewers/lurkers a good impression of what I had to deal with.

Thanks for a trip down memory lane.

This guy had some issues. I don’t expect anyone here will agree with me but his language and outright venom for the leadership of the church and its founding prophet and the Priesthood of God drip with ugliness and hatred.

For that behavior and his constant abusive language I found myself losing any respect that I had for his work. He was out to destroy the CofJCofLDS.

In that sense, he was an evil man.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You accuse people of all kinds of evil and give your "regards"? Hypocrite much? That's not very Christlike. In fact, your constant pontificating and empty platitudes to those on this board are also phony and also not what Jesus advocated people to be like. In all regards, you fail the test as any kind of Christian.

That's the first part you bolded.

The bolded language I’ve highlighted was pretty much par for the course. It gives viewers/lurkers a good impression of what I had to deal with.

Grindael made his argument pretty solidly in the section before what you highlighted, and is seen in your posts everywhere. What you "had to deal with" was someone who stood up to your trolling abuse.