Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[MG 2.0]

I understand where you’re coming from. I’ve read some of that research. But the way I see it, you’re describing the precursors to ‘remembering’, not the underlying nature of free will.

Free will is, by in large, a separate matter in some respects.

Regards,
MG

If you think of all the scenarios where you've chosen between two equally desirable choices, let's say between two items on a menu at a restaurant- and you make a split second decision- you should be able to feel that it's the same as "precursors to remembering."

The way that you settle on a decision is the same way that you think remembering works. It seems like you agree with me that there are many elements that your mind doesn't control via this concept of free will. You just have a sacred space that you would like this not to apply to. You asked why we want free will to not exist - I think you have a larger issue of wanting free will to exist in spite of good evidence and thought experiments which suggest otherwise.

Earlier I referred to Victor Frankl and his experience in the concentration camps and his views in regards to free will. I assume that you disagree with him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

Frankl further expounded on free will by describing the "last of the human freedoms" - the ability to "choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances." He emphasized that between a stimulus and a response, there is a space, and in that space lies the individual’s power to choose their response. This belief formed the basis of his logotherapy, where he encouraged individuals to take responsibility for their own lives and to find meaning and purpose, even in the face of suffering and adversity. Frankl also argued that by exercising our free will and choosing a meaningful response to life’s challenges, we can turn a personal tragedy into a triumph.

His experiences and ideas in regards to meaning and free will were formed not only through his professional pursuits but also through the crucible of ultimate suffering.

It’s kinda’ easy for us ‘couch experts’ to go back and forth. It’s something else to develop these ideas in regards to whether or not we have free will when thrown into the winepress.

How does absence of religiosity and accountability(to an higher authority)impact or affect your views?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Do calvinists believe in free will?

Just because something appears to possess free will doesn't necessarily mean it actually does. Do you agree?

We are free to to do we want but are not free to choose what we want.

Speak for yourself! (I know you are)

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I would be interested, however, in understanding why drumdude, yourself, and others seem to have a problem with free will. Is there a correlation between having somewhat of an antipathy towards free will and being a non religionist?

Do calvinists believe in free will?

Just because something appears to possess free will doesn't necessarily mean it actually does. Do you agree?

A.I.:

Calvinists do not believe in free will in the traditional sense. Instead, they adhere to a doctrine known as "predestination" or "unconditional election," which maintains that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not be saved, regardless of any individual's actions or choices. This doctrine, which is based on the teachings of the 16th-century theologian John Calvin, holds that humans are inherently sinful and incapable of choosing to follow God on their own. Instead, God extends his "irresistible grace" to those he has elected, and these individuals are unable to resist God’s call. So, while Calvinists do believe that humans have the ability to make choices, they maintain that ultimate salvation is entirely dependent on God’s sovereign will and not on an individual’s free will.

A person has the free will to adhere to Calvinistic belief or not.

As far as “appearance “ is concerned I can only speak for myself. I have free will. And I’m not trying to keep up appearances.

Reminds me of the old BBC production called Keeping Up Appearances. But I think those folks had free will also. NO WAIT! They were actors reading and reciting a script.

We’re not like that…as much as some might think that’s essentially what we’re doing as we roll through life experiences.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Maybe we’ll make more progress next time.

I appreciate the fact that you have a particular world view and that you would consider it to be ‘progress’ to have me accept that your particular version of reality is correct.


Regards,
MG

This is exactly why people judge you as disingenuous. By "progress" I simply meant some progress towards understanding each other world views. But you just don't seem to be able to restrain yourself from being a dick.

I keep wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere when you say you have become more accepting of other people's viewpoints. But you make it hard.

[drumdude]

If you think of all the scenarios where you've chosen between two equally desirable choices, let's say between two items on a menu at a restaurant- and you make a split second decision- you should be able to feel that it's the same as "precursors to remembering."

The way that you settle on a decision is the same way that you think remembering works. It seems like you agree with me that there are many elements that your mind doesn't control via this concept of free will. You just have a sacred space that you would like this not to apply to. You asked why we want free will to not exist - I think you have a larger issue of wanting free will to exist in spite of good evidence and thought experiments which suggest otherwise.

Earlier I referred to Victor Frankl and his experience in the concentration camps and his views in regards to free will. I assume that you disagree with him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

Frankl further expounded on free will by describing the "last of the human freedoms" - the ability to "choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances." He emphasized that between a stimulus and a response, there is a space, and in that space lies the individual’s power to choose their response. This belief formed the basis of his logotherapy, where he encouraged individuals to take responsibility for their own lives and to find meaning and purpose, even in the face of suffering and adversity. Frankl also argued that by exercising our free will and choosing a meaningful response to life’s challenges, we can turn a personal tragedy into a triumph.

His experiences and ideas in regards to meaning and free will were formed not only through his professional pursuits but also through the crucible of ultimate suffering.

It’s kinda’ easy for us ‘couch experts’ to go back and forth. It’s something else to develop these ideas in regards to whether or not we have free will when thrown into the winepress.

How does absence of religiosity and accountability(to an higher authority)impact or affect your views?

Regards,
MG

I think you may be thinking that when one stops believing in free will, that they stop believing there’s a reason to be good or do moral acts.

I haven’t personally found that to be the case. I am still doing all the murdering and raping and pillaging that I desire- exactly zero. I find that most of my time worrying about religious accountability was wasted as a Mormon on trivial things like coffee, tea, and undergarments.

I found worrying about coffee, tea, and undergarments to be trivial after reading Man’s Search for Meaning.

[Morley]

I appreciate the fact that you have a particular world view and that you would consider it to be ‘progress’ to have me accept that your particular version of reality is correct.


Regards,
MG

This is exactly why people judge you as disingenuous. By "progress" I simply meant some progress towards understanding each other world views. But you just don't seem to be able to restrain yourself from being a dick.

I keep wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere when you say you have become more accepting of other people's viewpoints. But you make it hard.

It’s pretty obvious that, at least in MG’s case, there is no free will. I can’t believe that anyone would freely choose to make such a dickish reply.

[MG 2.0]

I appreciate the fact that you have a particular world view and that you would consider it to be ‘progress’ to have me accept that your particular version of reality is correct.


Regards,
MG

This is exactly why people judge you as disingenuous. By "progress" I simply meant some progress towards understanding each other world views.

As I said. And I agree with your follow up.

But you just don't seem to be able to restrain yourself from being a dick.

An example of solipsism.

solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.

We all are subject to this phenomenon.

I keep wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere when you say you have become more accepting of other people's viewpoints. But you make it hard.

It is hard to be in the same room and not be able to fully understand the ‘other’. The tendency is to become uncivil and call others names. There is too much of that.

You said, “ You make it hard”. That’s an interpretive value developed within the interiors of your mind. Earlier we said that life is not seen through the eyes as much as it is through experience. Your experience is going to be unique to you although you may have others “in the room at the party” that will more or less agree with you because of their perceived life experience and dealings with ‘the other’

I think we would all do better to “judge not that ye be not judged”. Some famous guy said that a while back.

If I have been mistaken in thinking that you had intent to slowly convince or ‘teach me’ that my worldview is wrong and that yours is superior, I apologize. That’s what my ‘eyes of experience’ have been perceiving or telling me over time.

Thank you for correcting me and tactfully letting me know. Often that is the best way to get a message across.

Still interested in your thoughts regarding free will sometime when you get the chance.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

It’s pretty obvious that, at least in MG’s case, there is no free will. I can’t believe that anyone would freely choose to make such a dickish reply.

I will assure you, I have free will. It is for that reason that I will avoid calling you a (fill in the blank).

Instead I will wish you a good day.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

It’s pretty obvious that, at least in MG’s case, there is no free will. I can’t believe that anyone would freely choose to make such a dickish reply.

I will assure you, I have free will. It is for that reason that I will avoid calling you a (fill in the blank).

Instead I will wish you a good day.

So, you fully chose that dickish reply.

Your inability to surprise anyone is what demonstrates your lack of agency, my friend.

You, too. Take care.

[MG 2.0]

I will assure you, I have free will. It is for that reason that I will avoid calling you a (fill in the blank).

Instead I will wish you a good day.

So, you fully chose that dickish reply.

Your inability to surprise anyone is what demonstrates your lack of agency, my friend.

You, too. Take care.

I was being facetious (look it up). Good grief.

I think you look for reasons to inhibit/curtail (for whatever reason) what was actually, by my estimation a productive conversation on the whole.

Then someone calls someone a (fill in the blank) and things go downhill. Be that as it may…

Until later. Let’s give your jets a chance to cool down…

Regards,
MG