Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

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Morley
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 4:40 am

It wouldn’t hurt you to also recognize A.I. for what it is. A worthy contributor a to discussion.
Since you asked me to, I decided to try it out, MG. I'm using the tool that you say is a "worthy contributor a to discussion."


Here's A.I.'s response when I asked about the predicted trustworthiness of someone who would choose to post under moniker 'Mental Gymnast.'
The term "mental gymnast" is typically used pejoratively to describe someone who engages in convoluted or overly complex reasoning to defend a position or argument that might be inherently weak or flawed. This often involves using elaborate, often misleading, rhetorical maneuvers to justify a point, much like how a gymnast performs complex physical maneuvers. The negative connotation of the term suggests intellectual dishonesty or the prioritization of winning an argument over seeking the truth. Therefore, if someone self-identifies as a "mental gymnast," it raises questions about their commitment to honest discourse and the soundness of their arguments. Here are several reasons why such a self-identification might lead to distrust:

1. Implied Intellectual Dishonesty
The primary concern with someone calling themselves a "mental gymnast" is the implication of intellectual dishonesty. Mental gymnastics often involves twisting facts, employing logical fallacies, or cherry-picking evidence to support a preconceived notion. This kind of behavior undermines trust because it suggests that the individual is more interested in manipulating information to fit their agenda rather than engaging in a fair and truthful exploration of ideas. Trust is foundational in any discourse, and the admission of being a "mental gymnast" can indicate a predisposition towards deception and manipulation.

2. Complexity Over Clarity
Another reason for distrust is the preference for complexity over clarity. The essence of good argumentation and communication is to present ideas as clearly and straightforwardly as possible. By contrast, mental gymnastics often involve obfuscation—making arguments so complex and convoluted that they become difficult to follow. This can be a deliberate tactic to confuse the audience or to hide the weaknesses in one's position. If someone prides themselves on being a "mental gymnast," it suggests they might deliberately complicate matters to avoid scrutiny, which is antithetical to genuine intellectual engagement.

3. Avoidance of Logical Consistency
Logical consistency is a cornerstone of reliable reasoning and argumentation. Mental gymnastics often involve shifting goalposts, applying double standards, and other forms of logical inconsistency to maintain a particular stance. If someone identifies as a "mental gymnast," it signals that they might not adhere to consistent principles or logic, instead bending rules as needed to support their arguments. This lack of consistency erodes trust because it indicates that their arguments are not grounded in stable, reliable reasoning.

4. Evasion of Genuine Engagement
Engaging in mental gymnastics often means avoiding genuine engagement with counterarguments. Instead of addressing objections head-on, a mental gymnast might deflect, distract, or create straw man arguments. This evasion is problematic because productive discourse relies on the honest and direct engagement of differing perspectives. If someone admits to being a mental gymnast, it suggests they might habitually avoid substantive engagement, opting instead for rhetorical tricks to sidestep challenges. This behavior undermines the possibility of reaching mutual understanding or truth.

5. Perception of Ego and Arrogance
Self-identifying as a "mental gymnast" can also be perceived as a form of intellectual arrogance. It implies a sense of superiority over others in terms of one's ability to navigate and manipulate complex arguments. This perceived arrogance can be off-putting and can lead to distrust because it suggests the individual places their ego above the integrity of the discourse. Moreover, this attitude can alienate others, creating an adversarial rather than collaborative environment for discussion.

6. Erosion of Credibility
Credibility is crucial in any form of argumentation or discussion. By admitting to engaging in mental gymnastics, an individual essentially admits to a lack of intellectual rigor and honesty. This admission can significantly damage their credibility, as it suggests that their arguments cannot be taken at face value and must be scrutinized for hidden flaws and manipulations. Trustworthy communication relies on the presumption that individuals are presenting their arguments in good faith; self-identifying as a mental gymnast undermines this presumption.

7. Promotion of Relativism
Mental gymnastics often thrive on relativism—the idea that truth can be bent and shaped according to one's needs. This approach undermines the objective search for truth and can lead to a form of moral and intellectual relativism where all viewpoints are seen as equally valid, regardless of their factual or logical foundation. This relativism can be deeply unsettling in serious discourse because it implies that there are no stable truths or standards. If someone prides themselves on being a mental gymnast, it suggests they might subscribe to this form of relativism, further eroding trust in their arguments.

Conclusion
In summary, the term "mental gymnast" carries a strong negative connotation that implies intellectual dishonesty, a preference for complexity over clarity, logical inconsistency, evasion of genuine engagement, perceived arrogance, erosion of credibility, and promotion of relativism. These traits are antithetical to the principles of honest and rigorous discourse. Therefore, if someone self-identifies as a "mental gymnast," it raises significant concerns about their trustworthiness and the reliability of their arguments. Trust in communication relies on the expectation of good faith and intellectual honesty, both of which are called into question by the admission of engaging in mental gymnastics.
It is kinda funny. What do you think, MG?


For what it's worth, my reaction is still meh. For obvious reasons, I still think it's insulting to quote A.I. as a credible source in a general discussion with another human being.
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 1:01 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 4:40 am

It wouldn’t hurt you to also recognize A.I. for what it is. A worthy contributor a to discussion.
Since you asked me to, I decided to try it out, MG. I'm using the tool that you say is a "worthy contributor a to discussion."


Here's A.I.'s response when I asked about the predicted trustworthiness of someone who would choose to post under moniker 'Mental Gymnast.'
The term "mental gymnast" is typically used pejoratively to describe someone who engages in convoluted or overly complex reasoning to defend a position or argument that might be inherently weak or flawed. This often involves using elaborate, often misleading, rhetorical maneuvers to justify a point, much like how a gymnast performs complex physical maneuvers. The negative connotation of the term suggests intellectual dishonesty or the prioritization of winning an argument over seeking the truth. Therefore, if someone self-identifies as a "mental gymnast," it raises questions about their commitment to honest discourse and the soundness of their arguments. Here are several reasons why such a self-identification might lead to distrust:

1. Implied Intellectual Dishonesty
The primary concern with someone calling themselves a "mental gymnast" is the implication of intellectual dishonesty. Mental gymnastics often involves twisting facts, employing logical fallacies, or cherry-picking evidence to support a preconceived notion. This kind of behavior undermines trust because it suggests that the individual is more interested in manipulating information to fit their agenda rather than engaging in a fair and truthful exploration of ideas. Trust is foundational in any discourse, and the admission of being a "mental gymnast" can indicate a predisposition towards deception and manipulation.

2. Complexity Over Clarity
Another reason for distrust is the preference for complexity over clarity. The essence of good argumentation and communication is to present ideas as clearly and straightforwardly as possible. By contrast, mental gymnastics often involve obfuscation—making arguments so complex and convoluted that they become difficult to follow. This can be a deliberate tactic to confuse the audience or to hide the weaknesses in one's position. If someone prides themselves on being a "mental gymnast," it suggests they might deliberately complicate matters to avoid scrutiny, which is antithetical to genuine intellectual engagement.

3. Avoidance of Logical Consistency
Logical consistency is a cornerstone of reliable reasoning and argumentation. Mental gymnastics often involve shifting goalposts, applying double standards, and other forms of logical inconsistency to maintain a particular stance. If someone identifies as a "mental gymnast," it signals that they might not adhere to consistent principles or logic, instead bending rules as needed to support their arguments. This lack of consistency erodes trust because it indicates that their arguments are not grounded in stable, reliable reasoning.

4. Evasion of Genuine Engagement
Engaging in mental gymnastics often means avoiding genuine engagement with counterarguments. Instead of addressing objections head-on, a mental gymnast might deflect, distract, or create straw man arguments. This evasion is problematic because productive discourse relies on the honest and direct engagement of differing perspectives. If someone admits to being a mental gymnast, it suggests they might habitually avoid substantive engagement, opting instead for rhetorical tricks to sidestep challenges. This behavior undermines the possibility of reaching mutual understanding or truth.

5. Perception of Ego and Arrogance
Self-identifying as a "mental gymnast" can also be perceived as a form of intellectual arrogance. It implies a sense of superiority over others in terms of one's ability to navigate and manipulate complex arguments. This perceived arrogance can be off-putting and can lead to distrust because it suggests the individual places their ego above the integrity of the discourse. Moreover, this attitude can alienate others, creating an adversarial rather than collaborative environment for discussion.

6. Erosion of Credibility
Credibility is crucial in any form of argumentation or discussion. By admitting to engaging in mental gymnastics, an individual essentially admits to a lack of intellectual rigor and honesty. This admission can significantly damage their credibility, as it suggests that their arguments cannot be taken at face value and must be scrutinized for hidden flaws and manipulations. Trustworthy communication relies on the presumption that individuals are presenting their arguments in good faith; self-identifying as a mental gymnast undermines this presumption.

7. Promotion of Relativism
Mental gymnastics often thrive on relativism—the idea that truth can be bent and shaped according to one's needs. This approach undermines the objective search for truth and can lead to a form of moral and intellectual relativism where all viewpoints are seen as equally valid, regardless of their factual or logical foundation. This relativism can be deeply unsettling in serious discourse because it implies that there are no stable truths or standards. If someone prides themselves on being a mental gymnast, it suggests they might subscribe to this form of relativism, further eroding trust in their arguments.

Conclusion
In summary, the term "mental gymnast" carries a strong negative connotation that implies intellectual dishonesty, a preference for complexity over clarity, logical inconsistency, evasion of genuine engagement, perceived arrogance, erosion of credibility, and promotion of relativism. These traits are antithetical to the principles of honest and rigorous discourse. Therefore, if someone self-identifies as a "mental gymnast," it raises significant concerns about their trustworthiness and the reliability of their arguments. Trust in communication relies on the expectation of good faith and intellectual honesty, both of which are called into question by the admission of engaging in mental gymnastics.
It is kinda funny. What do you think, MG?


For what it's worth, my reaction is still meh. For obvious reasons, I still think it's insulting to quote A.I. as a credible source in a general discussion with another human being.
It is all in the eye of the beholder isn’t it?

A person who chooses the moniker "mentalgymnast" for a public discussion board on religion might possess several positive attributes, including:

1. Open-mindedness: The name suggests someone who is willing to explore different ideas and perspectives, and who is not afraid to challenge their own beliefs.

2. Intellectual curiosity: The word "gymnast" implies agility and flexibility, which could indicate that this person enjoys engaging in mental exercises and exploring complex topics.

3. Tolerance: By participating in a public discussion board on religion, this person may be demonstrating a willingness to engage with people of different faiths and viewpoints.

4. Creativity: The name "mentalgymnast" is somewhat unique and memorable, suggesting that this person may be creative and enjoy thinking outside the box.

Overall, the moniker "mentalgymnast" suggests a person who is open to new ideas, intellectually curious, tolerant, and creative, all of which are valuable qualities in a discussion about religion or any other complex topic.
A few more?

Here are a few more positive attributes that someone with the moniker "mentalgymnast" might possess:

1. Critical thinking: The name suggests someone who is skilled at analyzing and evaluating arguments, and who is able to think deeply about complex issues.

2. Humility: By acknowledging the importance of mental agility and flexibility, this person may be demonstrating a willingness to admit when they are wrong and learn from others.

3. Respect for diversity: The fact that this person is engaging in a public discussion about religion suggests that they value diversity and are interested in understanding different cultures and belief systems.

4. Intellectual honesty: The name "mentalgymnast" implies a commitment to intellectual honesty and a willingness to engage in good-faith discussions with others.

5. Persuasiveness: This person may be skilled at articulating their ideas and persuading others to consider alternative viewpoints.
In my estimation all these points being made are true. So, which list do we go by?

You have seven and I have ten. Numerical win? 😂

Good times. Thanks for playing, Morley.

When you decided to make the post ridiculing the mentalgymnast moniker (and me by association) what did you have in mind? Did you post as a result of your own free will and choice? Or were your neurons the puppet master and you claim no responsibility? 😉

The devil made me do it!! 🤨

I hope you will still have conversations with me, Morley. Although it would be nice to sidestep the sideshows.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Fri May 17, 2024 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:13 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:Can you imagine a creator God that has free will/agency?
What is free will/agency?
From Pi A.I.:

Free will and free agency are complex concepts that have been debated by philosophers, theologians, and scientists for centuries, and there is still no consensus on what they mean or whether they even exist.

As a result, people often define these concepts in different ways, depending on their personal beliefs, experiences, and cultural background. For example, some people believe that free will is an illusion and that our actions are ultimately determined by our genes, environment, and past experiences. Others believe that free will is a fundamental aspect of human nature and that we have the ability to make choices that are not predetermined.

Similarly, the concept of free agency can be interpreted in different ways, depending on one's beliefs about the nature of human freedom and responsibility. Some people may see free agency as the ability to act independently of external constraints, while others may see it as the ability to choose between good and evil.

Ultimately, how one defines free will and free agency will depend on their worldview and personal experiences, making these concepts somewhat subjective and open to interpretation.
I’m not the philosopher that you claim to be. Or the pragmatist. Or whatever.

My point is, you can define free agency how ever you want to. You can philosophize on it all you want.

Whatever floats your boat.

Have fun!

Regards,
MG
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 10:33 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 8:07 pm


Chime in then! If I’ve got you pegged wrong, by all means straighten me out. 🙂

Regards,
MG
Waste of time. Common sense alone would tell you which or the two of us would feel threatened by existence of non-existence of free agency.
On the other hand I have to wonder which one of us would feel threatened if free will is a gift from an all wise and knowing creator (since we’re throwing hypotheticals out there), and we’re accountable for our actions.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:10 am
all wise and knowing creator
Have you forsaken Mormonism's exalted man and organizer god, and embraced the God of Christianity?
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:21 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:10 am
all wise and knowing creator
Have you forsaken Mormonism's exalted man and organizer god, and embraced the God of Christianity?
The God of Christianity has much in common with the God I worship.

From Pi A.I.

Here are a few comparisons between the LDS and traditional Christian concepts of God:

* Both believe that God is a loving and merciful being who desires a personal relationship with His children.

* Both believe that God is holy and just, and that humans are sinful and in need of redemption.

* Both believe that God has revealed Himself to humanity through prophets and scripture.

* Both believe that God has a plan for humanity and that He is actively involved in human history.

* Both believe that prayer is an important way to communicate with God and seek His guidance and help.

* Both believe that God is the source of all goodness, truth, and beauty.

Overall, while there are some significant differences between the LDS and traditional Christian concepts of God, there are also many areas of common ground that can provide a basis for dialogue and understanding between the two faiths.
Some other similarities with Mormon God (referring to God that is comfortable for you).

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe in a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe that God created the universe and everything in it.

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior of humanity.
We have much in common with our Christian brothers and sisters. More so, I might say, than you might have in common with either traditional Christians or LDS Christians.

What part of your mind is encouraging you to respond to my posts regarding free will? Do you feel and believe that is your neurons pushing you? Does it feel like you are exercising free will?

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Fri May 17, 2024 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by Gadianton »

MG 2.0 wrote:I’m not the philosopher that you claim to be. Or the pragmatist. Or whatever.
Like I said earlier, I don't fault you for not having an answer as "free agency" is a nonsense idea that has never had an adequate definition.

However, it's worth pointing out that free agency is also a core idea in Mormonism. Per your account, you're advancing in years, which means you've been reading the scriptures and listening to talks by the brethren for decades and decades, but apparently you've learned nothing about what agency means other than God gave it to us and it's important.

And you're wrong about God giving it to us. According to the scriptures, intelligence, or light of truth can neither be created nor made. free agency exists independent of God, it's not something that he can give or take away. I'd say ask your bishop about it, but he probably doesn't know because like you, he just pays tithing for no reason.
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
MG 2.0 wrote:I’m not the philosopher that you claim to be. Or the pragmatist. Or whatever.
Like I said earlier, I don't fault you for not having an answer as "free agency" is a nonsense idea that has never had an adequate definition.
Actually I do have some ideas and thoughts in regards to free will. I’ve been spouting them off for many pages now in this thread. 🙂
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
However, it's worth pointing out that free agency is also a core idea in Mormonism.
Yes indeed.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
Per your account, you're advancing in years…
Hit number 70 yesterday! Not getting older, just getting better. 😉 And wiser in some respects. So why am I here on this board? Good question. I’m not sure I have a great answer except for it gives me a chance to sharpen my communication skills and push the sparks around up in my noggin.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
…which means you've been reading the scriptures and listening to talks by the brethren for decades and decades…


Yes.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
…but apparently you've learned nothing about what agency means other than God gave it to us and it's important.
I wouldn’t say that. I’ve learned through the eyes of experience what free will is and isn’t. In my estimation anyway. I don’t expect you to agree with me. Again, I’ve been spouting off on my thoughts in this regard throughout this thread. I don’t expect, however, that you need to or would even want to go back and read everything I’ve written in the last few days.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
And you're wrong about God giving it to us.
There were two plans. One involved free will, the other didn’t. God put in place the plan that gave us free will and agency. I’d call that a gift.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
According to the scriptures, intelligence, or light of truth can neither be created nor made.
Yes, that is true.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
free agency exists independent of God…


I think you would have to entertain the thought that created beings are necessary in order for free will to have a conduit in order to manifest itself while living on planet earth. At least to the best of my knowledge. If you’re saying that according to LDS belief that as Spirits in the pre mortal world we had agency independent of God, I agree.

Not sure what your point was here.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
…it's not something that he can give or take away.
According to LDS belief we had agency in the premortal world and used that agency in order to support God in his desires to give us further experience in using agency to make choices towards our eventual salvation/exaltation or damnation. But again, in a sense God did give us agency by refusing Satan’s plan. I think you are right in saying that God would not personally wish that any of His children lose their free will or agency. In a perfect world. But, duh, God knew it wasn’t gonna be a perfect world. Far from it.

But it is what it is. We live in a world of cause and effect and opposition. Agency and choice are in many cases limited among individuals for one reason or another. We’ve already discussed this at length in this thread also.
Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 3:21 am
I'd say ask your bishop about it, but he probably doesn't know because like you, he just pays tithing for no reason.
For a smart guy, you say some dumb things, Gadianton. And for the record, I’m not calling you dumb. Im just saying that now and then you say some dumb things. Like what you just said.

But I’m not immune to saying dumb things at times. It’s the bane of being human. 🙂

Best wishes.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:53 am
drumdude wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:21 am


Have you forsaken Mormonism's exalted man and organizer god, and embraced the God of Christianity?
The God of Christianity has much in common with the God I worship.

From Pi A.I.

Here are a few comparisons between the LDS and traditional Christian concepts of God:

* Both believe that God is a loving and merciful being who desires a personal relationship with His children.

* Both believe that God is holy and just, and that humans are sinful and in need of redemption.

* Both believe that God has revealed Himself to humanity through prophets and scripture.

* Both believe that God has a plan for humanity and that He is actively involved in human history.

* Both believe that prayer is an important way to communicate with God and seek His guidance and help.

* Both believe that God is the source of all goodness, truth, and beauty.

Overall, while there are some significant differences between the LDS and traditional Christian concepts of God, there are also many areas of common ground that can provide a basis for dialogue and understanding between the two faiths.
Some other similarities with Mormon God (referring to God that is comfortable for you).

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe in a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe that God created the universe and everything in it.

* Mormons and traditional Christians believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior of humanity.
We have much in common with our Christian brothers and sisters. More so, I might say, than you might have in common with either traditional Christians or LDS Christians.

What part of your mind is encouraging you to respond to my posts regarding free will? Do you feel and believe that is your neurons pushing you? Does it feel like you are exercising free will?

Regards,
MG
I guess we'll have a war of the A.I. chat bots then...
The belief that God organized existing matter rather than creating it out of nothing is a concept in Mormon theology. This view is rooted in the teachings of Joseph Smith, the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). According to Smith and subsequent LDS teachings, God is seen as an organizer who formed the universe from pre-existing, eternal matter.

This belief contrasts with the traditional Christian doctrine of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing). Instead, Mormon doctrine holds that matter and intelligence are eternal and that God organized this matter to create the world. This perspective is reflected in LDS scripture, such as the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, which describes God organizing and forming the heavens and the earth.

This view emphasizes a more process-oriented and cooperative role of God in creation, aligning with the broader LDS theological framework that includes the potential for humans to progress and become like God through eternal progression.
In Mormon theology, it is taught that God the Father (Heavenly Father) himself was once a mortal man who progressed to become God. This concept is encapsulated in the idea of eternal progression and is famously summarized by a statement attributed to Joseph Smith: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be."

This implies that God the Father had a father (a God) who helped him progress to his divine status. This belief is part of the larger framework of Mormon cosmology, which includes the idea that humans have the potential to become like God through obedience to the principles of the gospel and the ordinances of the LDS Church.

This teaching suggests an infinite regression of gods, each having progressed from mortality to divinity, which is distinct from mainstream Christian theology that typically views God as the eternally existent and uncreated being.
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Re: Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 2:10 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 10:33 pm


Waste of time. Common sense alone would tell you which or the two of us would feel threatened by existence of non-existence of free agency.
On the other hand I have to wonder which one of us would feel threatened if free will is a gift from an all wise and knowing creator (since we’re throwing hypotheticals out there), and we’re accountable for our actions.

Regards,
MG
This is another great example of your bigotry toward non-believers. I am accountable for my actions. I’m accountable to my wife. I’m accountable to my kids. I’m accountable to my friends. I’m accountable to my town, to my country, to my state and to my country. I’m accountable to my state bar, to judges in other counties, to federal judges in the Eastern and western Districts of Washington and to those in the 9th Circuit.

And I’m accountable to myself.

Why in the world would I fear a God that I don’t believe exists?

You don’t understand non-believers and you never will because you lack the will or ability to take David Brooks’s book seriously.

All hat. No cattle.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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