Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

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drumdude
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Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by drumdude »

DCP wrote:I have indicated here on several prior occasions that I’m inclined to a quasi-universalism. I believe in a Heavenly Father who loves his children with a love so intense and powerful and pure that I doubt that any mortal can really comprehend it, let alone be capable of it. Moreover, I take very seriously what the apostle Paul says at 1 Timothy 2:4, a passage that I cited a few days ago in a different context: (though I quote it here, for the sake of clarity, in the New King James Version): God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

I know that no even reasonably decent earthly parents want anything less than the best for their children, and that they would welcome the return of a prodigal at any point, whether early or late. And I can’t imagine that our Heavenly Parents are less loving than we are.

Some, wishing to test the limits of my “quasi-universalism,” have posed to me the question of Adolf Hitler. And understandably so, because he is about the most challenging specimen imaginable. I always respond that, even in his case, I simply don’t know; it is not my place to judge any other person’s ultimate destination. That is God’s role, not mine. I simply don’t know in any particular instance — not even Hitler’s — what factors made a person who he is. What combined aspects of childhood upbringing, traumatic psychological experience, flawed moral training, intellectual ability, social pressure, mental illness, defective education, brain chemistry, or the like led a person to act in a particular way? I simply can’t wholly know. It’s beyond my pay grade, and I feel no obligation at all to issue definitive pronouncements on the subject.

Whether Adolf Hitler actually has a chance at salvation, I do not know. I would hate to be standing in his shoes. I would especially hate to stand before God in his shoes.

Still, I’ve long loved and often cited a comment of the late Pope St. John Paul II: When asked whether a Christian must believe in Hell, he replied “Yes. But we can hope that it will be empty.”

Sadly, though, I doubt that it will be empty. The so-called “sons of perdition” seem to me to be individuals who, even at the end, rather than admitting that they were wrong and rather than repenting, will shake their fists at heaven and curse God. Such people will be few, but I suspect that there will be at least some.

I can imagine that there might be a few who will self-destructively nurse their prideful grudges against God all the way into the eternities. These will be the “sons of perditions.”

I’m struck by President Richards’s remark to “Hitler” in his dream: “”I am your brother. You are my brother. In our heavenly home we lived together in love and peace.” I’ve thought often along these lines: Even the worst persons in this life are children, sons and daughters, of God. None of those who chose Satan in the pre-mortal council made it to this life; every one of us on earth “passed” our first estate. And yet, what a wreck some of us have made of our mortal probations! All of us, of course, have fallen short. But some lives, seen in the light of their antemortal divine promise, are absolutely tragic, whatever their ultimate destination turns out to be. And this should make us feel not merely anger at them, but deep, deep sorrow for them.
Hitler seems to be innocent of the only real sin that DCP thinks can keep one out of heaven - disbelief:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." - Speech, April 12, 1922.

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people." - Speech, Passau, October 27, 1928.

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." - Mein Kampf, Vol. 2, Chapter 10.
Hitler seems pretty safe according to DCP's worldview. What's a few million Jews murdered, as long as he comes to God and doesn't reject Him. The ones who should really worry, are the skeptics like Bertrand Russell. The famous twentieth-century British philosopher was once asked what he would say to explain his atheism if he were to confront God after his death. Russell's famous reply was: “Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence.”

DCP seems to think that there are a non-zero number of souls who, when confronted with the reality of God and the ultimate goodness of God, would still reject God. I think that's pretty unlikely. But if God does turn out to be the Mormon version of God, who created a world where coffee, tea, and comfortable underwear were sins - and his morality revolves around these trivialities, I think we would be living in something like Christopher Hitchens' celestial North Korea.

A God who can't see how ridiculous the prohibition on coffee flavored ice cream is, for example, being around that God for eternity may be its own form of Hell. Daniel may be right after all, eating jello and funeral potatoes for eternity on a Cruise Lady boat, laughing at those of us who had the gall to scoff at the word of wisdom.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Perhaps I’m misremembering (and my apologies to Dr. Peterson, if I am), but hasn't he stated before that one of the reasons atheism has no appeal to him, is that it lacks the cosmic justice for those who are victims of atrocities?

Where is the justice for the millions of gays, Jews, Communists, gypsies, etc., if Hitler ends up in Heaven? Is the concept of quasi-Universalism, where someone can still achieve an eternity of bliss (despite being an absolute monster in this life) somehow more “just” that where the self-same person ceases to exist?

I'd be genuinely curious how he reconciles his quasi-Universalistic views with the concept of justice. Or perhaps he believes that prior to an infinite amount of eternal bliss, there will be a finite amount of punishment, that will somehow balance the scales for the victims?
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by Tom »

I’ve long loved and often cited a comment of the late Pope St. John Paul II: When asked whether a Christian must believe in Hell, he replied “Yes. But we can hope that it will be empty.”
Pope Francis reportedly made similar comments recently. Did the late Pope St. John Paul II do the same?
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by huckelberry »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 9:34 pm
Perhaps I’m misremembering (and my apologies to Dr. Peterson, if I am), but hasn't he stated before that one of the reasons atheism has no appeal to him, is that it lacks the cosmic justice for those who are victims of atrocities?

Where is the justice for the millions of gays, Jews, Communists, gypsies, etc., if Hitler ends up in Heaven? Is the concept of quasi-Universalism, where someone can still achieve an eternity of bliss (despite being an absolute monster in this life) somehow more “just” that where the self-same person ceases to exist?

I'd be genuinely curious how he reconciles his quasi-Universalistic views with the concept of justice. Or perhaps he believes that prior to an infinite amount of eternal bliss, there will be a finite amount of punishment, that will somehow balance the scales for the victims?
In context of Christian thought nobody achieves eternity of bliss. Those who experience receive it as an undeserved gift. Justice is covered by the cross.

I do not know about Hitler but if he were sent to heaven that would be a cancellation of everything he did on earth, his life burned like useless straw. I do not know what him would be left.

I do not see a way his suffering would be of any benefit to those who suffered in this life because of him. If there is left something positive about him that preservation would demonstrate the folly of his negatives and represent why in eternity those negatives are terminated.
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 9:23 pm
DCP wrote:I have indicated here on several prior occasions that I’m inclined to a quasi-universalism. I believe in a Heavenly Father who loves his children with a love so intense and powerful and pure that I doubt that any mortal can really comprehend it, let alone be capable of it. Moreover, I take very seriously what the apostle Paul says at 1 Timothy 2:4, a passage that I cited a few days ago in a different context: (though I quote it here, for the sake of clarity, in the New King James Version): God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

I know that no even reasonably decent earthly parents want anything less than the best for their children, and that they would welcome the return of a prodigal at any point, whether early or late. And I can’t imagine that our Heavenly Parents are less loving than we are.

Some, wishing to test the limits of my “quasi-universalism,” have posed to me the question of Adolf Hitler. And understandably so, because he is about the most challenging specimen imaginable. I always respond that, even in his case, I simply don’t know; it is not my place to judge any other person’s ultimate destination. That is God’s role, not mine. I simply don’t know in any particular instance — not even Hitler’s — what factors made a person who he is. What combined aspects of childhood upbringing, traumatic psychological experience, flawed moral training, intellectual ability, social pressure, mental illness, defective education, brain chemistry, or the like led a person to act in a particular way? I simply can’t wholly know. It’s beyond my pay grade, and I feel no obligation at all to issue definitive pronouncements on the subject.

Whether Adolf Hitler actually has a chance at salvation, I do not know. I would hate to be standing in his shoes. I would especially hate to stand before God in his shoes.

Still, I’ve long loved and often cited a comment of the late Pope St. John Paul II: When asked whether a Christian must believe in Hell, he replied “Yes. But we can hope that it will be empty.”

Sadly, though, I doubt that it will be empty. The so-called “sons of perdition” seem to me to be individuals who, even at the end, rather than admitting that they were wrong and rather than repenting, will shake their fists at heaven and curse God. Such people will be few, but I suspect that there will be at least some.

I can imagine that there might be a few who will self-destructively nurse their prideful grudges against God all the way into the eternities. These will be the “sons of perditions.”

I’m struck by President Richards’s remark to “Hitler” in his dream: “”I am your brother. You are my brother. In our heavenly home we lived together in love and peace.” I’ve thought often along these lines: Even the worst persons in this life are children, sons and daughters, of God. None of those who chose Satan in the pre-mortal council made it to this life; every one of us on earth “passed” our first estate. And yet, what a wreck some of us have made of our mortal probations! All of us, of course, have fallen short. But some lives, seen in the light of their antemortal divine promise, are absolutely tragic, whatever their ultimate destination turns out to be. And this should make us feel not merely anger at them, but deep, deep sorrow for them.
Hitler seems to be innocent of the only real sin that DCP thinks can keep one out of heaven - disbelief:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." - Speech, April 12, 1922.

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people." - Speech, Passau, October 27, 1928.

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." - Mein Kampf, Vol. 2, Chapter 10.
Hitler seems pretty safe according to DCP's worldview. What's a few million Jews murdered, as long as he comes to God and doesn't reject Him. The ones who should really worry, are the skeptics like Bertrand Russell. The famous twentieth-century British philosopher was once asked what he would say to explain his atheism if he were to confront God after his death. Russell's famous reply was: “Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence.”

DCP seems to think that there are a non-zero number of souls who, when confronted with the reality of God and the ultimate goodness of God, would still reject God. I think that's pretty unlikely. But if God does turn out to be the Mormon version of God, who created a world where coffee, tea, and comfortable underwear were sins - and his morality revolves around these trivialities, I think we would be living in something like Christopher Hitchens' celestial North Korea.

A God who can't see how ridiculous the prohibition on coffee flavored ice cream is, for example, being around that God for eternity may be its own form of Hell. Daniel may be right after all, eating jello and funeral potatoes for eternity on a Cruise Lady boat, laughing at those of us who had the gall to scoff at the word of wisdom.
drumdude I do not think the idea of shaking ones fist and rejecting god at all fits Bertrand Russell's disbelief due to lack of evidence. A person asserting, "I will not serve and I will not love" seems more the sentiments under condemnation.

You have some interesting quotes from Mein Kampf. Perhaps it is shifts in social atmosphere currently which make me hear emerging shadow side Christian desires in his comments and not just manipulated images for show.(the antiChrist comes proclaiming to lead the saving of Christianity)
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 11:22 pm
You have some interesting quotes from Mein Kampf. Perhaps it is shifts in social atmosphere currently which make me hear emerging shadow side Christian desires in his comments and not just manipulated images for show.(the antiChrist comes proclaiming to lead the saving of Christianity)
I think political expediency would dictate that he say these things, the concordat with the Vatican comes to mind. To be an open atheist in the early 20th century was political suicide. It’s known only to Hitler if he was sincere or not, I’m inclined to believe it was lip service.

However, lip service seems good enough for salvation, from my understanding of Christianity anyway.
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 11:35 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 11:22 pm
You have some interesting quotes from Mein Kampf. Perhaps it is shifts in social atmosphere currently which make me hear emerging shadow side Christian desires in his comments and not just manipulated images for show.(the antiChrist comes proclaiming to lead the saving of Christianity)
I think political expediency would dictate that he say these things, the concordat with the Vatican comes to mind. To be an open atheist in the early 20th century was political suicide. It’s known only to Hitler if he was sincere or not, I’m inclined to believe it was lip service.

However, lip service seems good enough for salvation, from my understanding of Christianity anyway.
drumdude, lipservice? you must be listening to some truly awful preachers.

You may very well be right about Hitler giving lip service in those comments.(illustrating how demonic lipservice can be) I will certainly not insist upon that glimpse of passionate belief motivating some fascist christian movement.(some folks move toward hoping for war to defeat the godless secular forces destroying Christian freedom and god given role of dominance over all of society) This bell has rung in the US by some.
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by Gadianton »

It's even worse than that.
Petersen wrote:Sadly, though, I doubt that it will be empty. The so-called “sons of perdition” seem to me to be individuals who, even at the end, rather than admitting that they were wrong and rather than repenting, will shake their fists at heaven and curse God. Such people will be few, but I suspect that there will be at least some.
The chief of the apologists is redefining Mormon doctrine to make it worse for critics. First of all, a third of the host of heaven are already sons of perdition, and they are consigned to outer darkness. They have no chance to repent. He may be talking about Sons of Perdition -- Cain? David? At any rate, he's either ignoring the 1/3d or redeeming them, making a shorter list who are worse than posters on this board.
Petersen wrote:I can imagine that there might be a few who will self-destructively nurse their prideful grudges against God all the way into the eternities. These will be the “sons of perditions.”
Total redefine of doctrine. A person can't simply nurse their grudge against God and get outer darkness. Did this guy ever listen in church? To qualify as a Son of Perdition aside from being the 1/3d, you must first receive your call and election and have a perfect knowledge of the Savior, and then you must turn away from the Church and fight it to the end.
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 11:54 pm
Petersen wrote:I can imagine that there might be a few who will self-destructively nurse their prideful grudges against God all the way into the eternities. These will be the “sons of perditions.”
Total redefine of doctrine. A person can't simply nurse their grudge against God and get outer darkness. Did this guy ever listen in church? To qualify as a Son of Perdition aside from being the 1/3d, you must first receive your call and election and have a perfect knowledge of the Savior, and then you must turn away from the Church and fight it to the end.
Lol. Talk about a case of projection! “Self-destructively nurse their prideful grudges”? I never could have come up with a better description of the Mopologists than that. It’s absolutely perfect.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Hitler may have a better chance in heaven than ex-Mormon apostates

Post by Moksha »

At various LDS Temples, Hitler was baptized eight times and was sealed to Eva Braun.
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