The Many-Transfigurations theory

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drumdude
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Re: The Many-Transfigurations theory

Post by drumdude »

Moksha wrote:
Wed May 29, 2024 1:40 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 29, 2024 9:22 am
That bid seems to have been borne of genuine animus between them when Hinckley was alive. Not what one hopes to see in a prophet, but there it is.
Perhaps if a Conference goer squinted hard at the time, they could see Elder Nelson's face take on the countenance of an angry Bruce R. McConkie and even imagine a fiery meteor plunging from the sky and landing on President Hinckley, with a whale swallowing Nelson and holding him safe until the conflagration died out.
Lmao 😂
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Tom
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Re: The Many-Transfigurations theory

Post by Tom »

In his 1995 Dialogue article examining the various accounts of the alleged transfiguration of Brigham Young, Richard Van Wagoner noted that
Apostle Orson Hyde, prone to exaggerate, particularly when attempting to undermine the succession claims of his archenemy Sidney Rigdon, did not arrive in Nauvoo until 13 August. Yet he left two elaborate personal reminiscences of a "transfiguration" he could not possibly have witnessed either.
Richard S. Van Wagoner, "The Making of a Mormon Myth: The 1844 Transfiguration of Brigham Young," Dialogue 28/4 (Winter 1995): 17.

In October 1869, Hyde said the following in a discourse:
I will tell you that as long as God has a Church on the earth, He will govern it. Now I will tell you a little of my feelings in relation to it. I know that when President Young returned with the Twelve to Nauvoo, he gathered them around him, and said he: “I want you to disperse among the congregation and feel the pulse of the people while I go upon the stand and speak.”

We went among the congregation and President Young went on the stand. Well, he spoke; and his words went through me like electricity. “Am I mis-taken?” said I, “or is it really the voice of Joseph Smith?” This is my testimony, it was not only the voice of Joseph, but there were the features, the gestures and even the stature of Joseph there before us in the person of Brigham. And though it may be said that President Young is a complete mimic, and can mimic anybody, I would like to see the man who can mimic another in stature who was about four or five inches higher than himself.—every one who was inspired by the spirit of the Lord, felt it. They knew it. They realized it.

I sat myself down in the midst of the congregation, with my two wives, whom Joseph had given and sealed to me. When President Young began to speak, one of them said: “It is the voice of Joseph! It is Joseph Smith!” The exclamation of the other was,—“I do not see him, where is he?[”] Well the thought occurred to my mind respecting the Scripture which President Young has just quoted:—“My sheep know my voice and follow me.” Where is the one that recognized the voice of Joseph in President Young? Where is she? She is in the line of her duty. But where is the other? Gone where I wish she were not. The sheep of the good shepherd will follow the voice they know; but they will not follow the voice of a stranger.

Now, this was a manifestation of the power of the Almighty—it was the power of God resting on an individual in the eyes of all the people; not only in feature and voice, but actually in stature. This is my testimony. . . . Did it require proof that Joseph was there in the person of Brigham, speaking with an angel’s voice? It required no argument; with those who feared God and loved truth, it required none.
Orson Hyde, “Remarks,” Deseret News Semi-Weekly, November 16, 1869 (discourse given October 6, 1869) (emphasis in original), as cited in
"Documents of Testimonies of the Mantle Experience," in John W. Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestation, 1820-1844 (Provo and Salt Lake City: Brigham Young University Press/Deseret Book, 2017), 449-50.

Hyde's candid comments about Young's ability to "mimic anybody" are worth noting.

In a discourse delivered April 5, 1877, Hyde said the following:
At the time our Prophet and Patriarch were killed, or at least soon afterwards, when the Twelve returned to Nauvoo, their immediate circumstances were not altogether agreeable and pleasant or profitable. But suffice it to say we had a meeting, a Conference, at which President Young was the centre of attraction. On his rising to speak, and as soon as he opened his mouth, I heard the voice of Joseph through him, and it was as familiar to me as the voice of my wife, the voice of my child, or the voice of my father. And not only the voice of Joseph did I distinctly and unmistakably hear, but I saw the very gestures of his person, the very features of his countenance, and if I mistake not, the very size of his person appeared on the stand. And it went through me with the thrill of conviction that Brigham was the man to lead this people. And from that day to the present there had not been a query or a doubt upon my mind with regard to the divinity of his appointment; I know that he was the man selected of God to fill the position he now holds.
Journal of Discourses, 19:58 (April 5, 1877), as cited in "Documents of Testimonies of the Mantle Experience," in Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens, 450.

Did Hyde testify of something he could not have been present to witness? Lynne Watkins Jorgensen addresses this question with an ad-hoc assertion that Hyde witnessed a transformation "on a later date." She writes:
The accounts of still others indicate that they witnessed a transformation not on August 8, but rather on a later date (documents 12, 41, 80). Church historian Leonard J. Arrington verified, “It was not uncommon for people to see Joseph speaking through Brigham many years after ‘the mantle had fallen on him.’” An example is the account of the apostle Orson Hyde, who did not arrive in Nauvoo until August 12, 1844. He twice testified publicly to his “mantle” experience, which he shared with his wife, Mary Anne Price Hyde.
Lynne Watkins Jorgensen, “The Mantle of the Prophet Joseph Passes to Brother Brigham: One Hundred Twenty-nine Testimonies of a Collective Spiritual Witness,” in Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens, 404.

In a footnote, Jorgensen cites page 115 of Arrington's American Moses. Unfortunately, though, Arrington does not cite any support for his statement. In the same footnote, Jorgensen adds:
For instance, John D. Lee, who penned a powerful testimony concerning the mantle experience, actually did not arrive in Nauvoo until August 20, 1844, according to his diary. He obviously had his mantle experience “after the fact,” as did Orson Hyde, Mary Anne Price Hyde, Anson Call, Jacob Hamblin, Albert Carrington, and others.
The use of "obviously" is not a substitute for an argument. As Jorgensen recognizes, Lee left an account of a “mantle experience,” but he was not present in Nauvoo until August 20, 1844. Here is Lee's account:
Time passed on until the whole twelve got in from their missions, and a conference was held, and the several claimants came forward with their claims. Sidney Rigdon was the first who appeared upon the stand. He had been considered rather in the background for sometime previous to the death of the Prophet. He made but a weak claim. Strong (Strang) did not file any. Just them [sic] Brigham Young arose and roared like a young lion, imitating the style and voice of Joseph, the Prophet. Many of the brethren declared that they saw the mantle of Joseph fall upon him. I myself, at the time, imagined that I saw and heard a strong resemblance to the Prophet in him, and felt that he was the man to lead us until Joseph’s legal successor should grow up to manhood, when he should surrender the Presidency to the man who held the birthright.
John Doyle Lee, Mormonism Unveiled; or, The Life and Confessions of the Late Mormon Bishop, John D. Lee (St. Louis: Bryan and Brand, 1877), 155, as cited in "Documents of Testimonies of the Mantle Experience," in Welch, ed., Opening the Heavens, 493-94.

Were Hyde's two accounts, in fact, describing meetings other than the August 8, 1844, meetings? And was Lee, in fact, describing meetings other than the August 8, 1844, meetings? I'll let others read their accounts and decide. I find it notable, though, that Jorgensen doesn't address the possibility that Hyde and Lee simply misrepresented their attendance at the August 8, 1844, meetings and claimed others' accounts of a transfiguration as their own.
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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