Elder Oaks wants MORE Excommunications!

[yellowstone123]

It's interesting the LDS church changing the names of things: disciplinary councils to membership councils; from excommunication to withdrawing a person's membership. I can see why:

In 1969 Spencer Kimball wrote in The Miracle of Forgiveness -

Excommunication

"The scriptures speak of Church members being “cast out” or “cut off,” or having their names “blotted out.” This means excommunication. This dread action means the total severance of the individual from the Church. The person who is excommunicated loses his membership in the Church and all attendant blessings. As an excommunicant, he is in a worse situation than he was before he joined the Church. He has lost the Holy Ghost, his priesthood, his endowments, his sealings, his privileges and his claim upon eternal life. This is about the saddest thing which could happen to an individual. Better that he suffer poverty, persecution, sickness, and even death. A true Latter-day Saint would far prefer to see a loved one in his bier than excommunicated from the Church. If the one cut off did not have this feeling of desolateness and barrenness and extreme loss, it would be evidence that he did not understand the meaning of excommunication."

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... unication/

Helen Whitney, who produced the PBS series The Mormons was interviewed by John D and has thoughts on the issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5py-D_Ak-4&t=2162s

[Dr. Sunstoned]

It's interesting the LDS church changing the names of things: disciplinary councils to membership councils; from excommunication to withdrawing a person's membership. I can see why:

In 1969 Spencer Kimball wrote in The Miracle of Forgiveness -

Excommunication

"The scriptures speak of Church members being “cast out” or “cut off,” or having their names “blotted out.” This means excommunication. This dread action means the total severance of the individual from the Church. The person who is excommunicated loses his membership in the Church and all attendant blessings. As an excommunicant, he is in a worse situation than he was before he joined the Church. He has lost the Holy Ghost, his priesthood, his endowments, his sealings, his privileges and his claim upon eternal life. This is about the saddest thing which could happen to an individual. Better that he suffer poverty, persecution, sickness, and even death. A true Latter-day Saint would far prefer to see a loved one in his bier than excommunicated from the Church. If the one cut off did not have this feeling of desolateness and barrenness and extreme loss, it would be evidence that he did not understand the meaning of excommunication."

I resigned, so apparently, all this made-up crap also applies to me. Good to know.

[I Have Questions]

I’ve watched the video now and my takeaways are:
1. Despite an increase in total membership, the number of disciplinary councils being held has dropped dramatically over the last decade.
2. Compounding that drop, the proportion of disciplinary councils that result in an excommunication has also dropped dramatically.
3. Bishops and Stake Presidents are to blame for both of these failings.
4. Sinners in the pews are like a cancer in the Church.

I would also note Oaks deceptively uses a statistic to try and make it appear as though there is a net positive result for the sinner if these sinners are excommunicated. He says if a member is excommunicated, then statistics show they are less likely to sin again. That has to be deliberate deception (a lie) because, as RFM points out, Oaks cannot possibly know the ongoing behaviour of an expelled member who doesn’t return to Church. Oaks also cannot possibly know the ongoing behaviour of an expelled member who does return to Church but who keeps quiet in the confessional because they don’t want to face another disciplinary council.

The First Presidency committed the serious sin of financial fraud. Have they been excommunicated so that they too might be able to fully repent by experiencing a broken heart and a contrite spirit? No? Why not?

[hauslern]

Check out Cumorah.com for growth and activity. I did it for Sweden (9649), Norway (4598) and Finland (4901).

[I Have Questions]

As a little survey, how many people on this board know people who have been excommunicated, and what percentage returned to church activity?

From my experience of seeing people being excommunicated, it’s less than 10%.

[Gadianton]

From your stories, it sounds like you were in leadership positions such that you can make a decent estimate. From my life as a young child, I know of three excommunications. From my life after twelve, I know of zero excommunications. Two from my childhood were both bishops and their GFs who committed adultery. I can't say for the one situation, other than I think he came back after a while. But for the other situation, the charismatic Bishop was welcomed back with open arms while his GF was treated as a slut and never became active again to my knowledge. The third situation was an interesting one as my father, a member missionary 10x all of FARMS combined, became a home teacher to a couple who were in the process of getting ex'd. I'm not sure what the reason was. He considered himself an atheist. they were on the verge of divorce. There was smoking and drinking involved and connections to organized crime, but I can't recall the reasons for the ex'ing. I think she had been marginally active while he was on the books and never active. The member missionary in this case was in his zone with mission impossible, and not only did they come back and get rebaptized, but he became a bishop and they died active. He died of lung cancer.

Well, if there is any trend here, we'd need to distinguish between pre-80s excommunication and post-80s excommunication. There's a difference between the hard-life atheist who suffered and was rejected, or the repressed members in the upper-crust going to town and getting caught, and people eating from the tree of knowledge.

[I Have Questions]

From your stories, it sounds like you were in leadership positions such that you can make a decent estimate. From my life as a young child, I know of three excommunications. From my life after twelve, I know of zero excommunications. Two from my childhood were both bishops and their GFs who committed adultery. I can't say for the one situation, other than I think he came back after a while. But for the other situation, the charismatic Bishop was welcomed back with open arms while his GF was treated as a slut and never became active again to my knowledge. The third situation was an interesting one as my father, a member missionary 10x all of FARMS combined, became a home teacher to a couple who were in the process of getting ex'd. I'm not sure what the reason was. He considered himself an atheist. they were on the verge of divorce. There was smoking and drinking involved and connections to organized crime, but I can't recall the reasons for the ex'ing. I think she had been marginally active while he was on the books and never active. The member missionary in this case was in his zone with mission impossible, and not only did they come back and get rebaptized, but he became a bishop and they died active. He died of lung cancer.

Well, if there is any trend here, we'd need to distinguish between pre-80s excommunication and post-80s excommunication. There's a difference between the hard-life atheist who suffered and was rejected, or the repressed members in the upper-crust going to town and getting caught, and people eating from the tree of knowledge.

I think you’re on to something in terms of how excommunications have changed over time. Both in terms of the reasons for, and in the attitude of the people conducting the hearing. It’s now adversarial, whereas in the past it was done with an approach of brotherly concern. “How can we help you get through this…” sort of tone. Now it’s about making sure the hearing isn’t taped, that you follow a script, don’t let the guilty party guide the meeting etc. It’s a corporate process, not a religious instrument for helping sinners though a difficult moment in their life.

[Philo Sofee]

From your stories, it sounds like you were in leadership positions such that you can make a decent estimate. From my life as a young child, I know of three excommunications. From my life after twelve, I know of zero excommunications. Two from my childhood were both bishops and their GFs who committed adultery. I can't say for the one situation, other than I think he came back after a while. But for the other situation, the charismatic Bishop was welcomed back with open arms while his GF was treated as a slut and never became active again to my knowledge. The third situation was an interesting one as my father, a member missionary 10x all of FARMS combined, became a home teacher to a couple who were in the process of getting ex'd. I'm not sure what the reason was. He considered himself an atheist. they were on the verge of divorce. There was smoking and drinking involved and connections to organized crime, but I can't recall the reasons for the ex'ing. I think she had been marginally active while he was on the books and never active. The member missionary in this case was in his zone with mission impossible, and not only did they come back and get rebaptized, but he became a bishop and they died active. He died of lung cancer.

Well, if there is any trend here, we'd need to distinguish between pre-80s excommunication and post-80s excommunication. There's a difference between the hard-life atheist who suffered and was rejected, or the repressed members in the upper-crust going to town and getting caught, and people eating from the tree of knowledge.

I think you’re on to something in terms of how excommunications have changed over time. Both in terms of the reasons for, and in the attitude of the people conducting the hearing. It’s now adversarial, whereas in the past it was done with an approach of brotherly concern. “How can we help you get through this…” sort of tone. Now it’s about making sure the hearing isn’t taped, that you follow a script, don’t let the guilty party guide the meeting etc. It’s a corporate process, not a religious instrument for helping sinners though a difficult moment in their life.

Exactly. it appears Jesus, once again as in olden times cannot control the Pharisees from taking over his church and mucking it up. Perhaps he isn't communicating as clearly as he could be if it mattered at all to him? I dunno, just askin'. It seems like he always allows humans to wreck it all and he has to start over. I would think he could figure it out after so many failed attempts through history to get the Plan of Salvation into all the world....