LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

[drumdude]

I didn’t “throw whatever”. I quoted a survey into LDS family sizes.
Nor did I insinuate anything. It’s a simple conclusion based on the data.
If 1. LDS children are the lifeblood of the Church (your claim), and
2. LDS parents are having fewer and fewer children, then
3. The lifeblood of the Church is diminishing and the Church has a problem.

You are also far more insular in your thinking than I had anticipated. You are equating the situation in your ward, and the wards you’re aware of in Utah, as typical of wards globally. I don’t know how you’ve reached that conclusion. It’s the hallmark of a narrow or closed mind.

And I’m saying the church doesn’t have a problem. Not everything is found in a book or a limited survey.

You ought to attend some wards in your area. My guess is you’ll see parents with kids going to primary. You will see youth and youth leaders. You might even see a missionary coming or going.

We did just this last Sunday.

You guys, of course, are going to be ‘negative Nannie’s’, I get that.

Regards,
MG

For what it’s worth I think you’re correct that the LDS church has a lot of young families still attending.

That’s been my anecdotal experience as well. I’ve even half joked to my nevermo wife that we should consider attending.

[I Have Questions]

I didn’t “throw whatever”. I quoted a survey into LDS family sizes.
Nor did I insinuate anything. It’s a simple conclusion based on the data.
If 1. LDS children are the lifeblood of the Church (your claim), and
2. LDS parents are having fewer and fewer children, then
3. The lifeblood of the Church is diminishing and the Church has a problem.

You are also far more insular in your thinking than I had anticipated. You are equating the situation in your ward, and the wards you’re aware of in Utah, as typical of wards globally. I don’t know how you’ve reached that conclusion. It’s the hallmark of a narrow or closed mind.

And I’m saying the church doesn’t have a problem. Not everything is found in a book or a limited survey.

No, all the answers can be found in your ward, apparently.

You ought to attend some wards in your area. My guess is you’ll see parents with kids going to primary. You will see youth and youth leaders. You might even see a missionary coming or going.

Why have you assumed I’m unfamiliar with wards in my area?

We did just this last Sunday.

You guys, of course, are going to be ‘negative Nannie’s’, I get that.

Regards,
MG

The data is the data. LDS families are shrinking. That’s a reported fact. Families generally are becoming smaller. That’s also a reported fact. The Church has also recognised a problem in retention levels of the 18-30 age group. That’s also a reported fact.

If 1. LDS children are the lifeblood of the Church (your claim), and
2. LDS parents are having fewer and fewer children (which they are), then
3. The lifeblood of the Church is diminishing and the Church has a problem (that’s called logic)

[I Have Questions]

And I’m saying the church doesn’t have a problem. Not everything is found in a book or a limited survey.

You ought to attend some wards in your area. My guess is you’ll see parents with kids going to primary. You will see youth and youth leaders. You might even see a missionary coming or going.

We did just this last Sunday.

You guys, of course, are going to be ‘negative Nannie’s’, I get that.

Regards,
MG

For what it’s worth I think you’re correct that the LDS church has a lot of young families still attending.

That’s been my anecdotal experience as well. I’ve even half joked to my nevermo wife that we should consider attending.

That’s undoubtedly true. But the size of those families is reducing over time. Which is an issue in the “pipeline”.

[MG 2.0]

And I’m saying the church doesn’t have a problem. Not everything is found in a book or a limited survey.

No, all the answers can be found in your ward, apparently.

You ought to attend some wards in your area. My guess is you’ll see parents with kids going to primary. You will see youth and youth leaders. You might even see a missionary coming or going.

Why have you assumed I’m unfamiliar with wards in my area?

We did just this last Sunday.

You guys, of course, are going to be ‘negative Nannie’s’, I get that.

Regards,
MG

The data is the data. LDS families are shrinking. That’s a reported fact. Families generally are becoming smaller. That’s also a reported fact. The Church has also recognised a problem in retention levels of the 18-30 age group. That’s also a reported fact.

If 1. LDS children are the lifeblood of the Church (your claim), and
2. LDS parents are having fewer and fewer children (which they are), then
3. The lifeblood of the Church is diminishing and the Church has a problem (that’s called logic)

I don’t think your concerns are meaningful (at least in the way you would like it to be portrayed) ‘on the ground’. Say what you will, but the church is a church of vibrant and beautiful families that come to church to worship the Lord.

You’re over complicating things. And you can’t make the church into your own image and likeness. It is what it is.

If you are attending wards in your area what are you seeing?

In the last ten years or so I’ve been to wards in Utah, New York, Idaho, Texas, California, and Missouri. Active wards/branches with families being the life blood of the wards in my estimation and from my observation.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

For what it’s worth I think you’re correct that the LDS church has a lot of young families still attending.

That’s been my anecdotal experience as well. I’ve even half joked to my nevermo wife that we should consider attending.

That’s undoubtedly true. But the size of those families is reducing over time. Which is an issue in the “pipeline”.

A lot of families of four or five kids. But you’re right, not as many of the 8-10 kids.

But lots of families with kids. Add all those kids up and you have future wards and stakes.

It’s gonna happen with or without you, IHAQ.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

LDS families are shrinking.

I don’t think anyone ever argued that this wasn’t the case.

But that doesn’t then, in turn, mean the LDS Church is in its ‘death spiral’. As much as some might hope.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Families are the lifeblood of the church.

Regards,
MG

What about its stock and real estate portfolios? They will continue to grow faster than so-called "families".

[I Have Questions]

LDS families are shrinking.

I don’t think anyone ever argued that this wasn’t the case.

But that doesn’t then, in turn, mean the LDS Church is in its ‘death spiral’. As much as some might hope.

Regards,
MG

Who said anything about a “death spiral”? You are reframing my words. Again. Stop doing that.

If you now agree with the data that the size of an LDS family is shrinking. Then it’s automatically the case that there’s a decline in what you claim is the lifeblood of the Church. This is very basic reasoning.

[I Have Questions]

That’s undoubtedly true. But the size of those families is reducing over time. Which is an issue in the “pipeline”.

A lot of families of four or five kids. But you’re right, not as many of the 8-10 kids.

The data doesn’t support your assertion.

Overall, the median number of children that Mormons had themselves was 2.42, which is still about 7/10 of a child higher than is typical of Americans as a whole, but not nearly as much of a spread as pertained in the early 1980s.

https://religionnews.com/2019/06/15/the ... an-family/

How does that compare?

According to research from the 2016 Next Mormons Survey (NMS), today’s Mormon adults grew up in families of 4.02 children.

I note that this data is drawn from US Mormons.

So a drop in median size of 1.4 children.


More data points…

Latter-day Saint fertility is higher than it is for members of other religions — and certainly higher than it is for people who do not identify with a religion at all — but it’s not what it used to be. In 2012, when there were only 14.7 million church members, there were 122,273 children of record. Twelve years later, we have a 17.2 million-member church, but only 93,594 children of record. And that was an improvement over the 89,000-ish for the last two years.

In other words, over the course of the last 12 years, the church has grown by just shy of 17% overall, or about 1.4% annually on average. But over that period, the number of new children of record has dropped by almost a quarter. The combination of members having fewer children, and some members opting out of having their children officially blessed, is a concern for the future.

(Bolding added by me)

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/12/mor ... ut-slowly/

If 1. Families are the lifeblood of the Church (your claim), and 2. Family size has reduced (the data), and 3. Fewer children are being officially blessed into the Church…then 4. there is a decline in the lifeblood of the Church (logical reasoning). At least in America.

[huckelberry]

I don’t think anyone ever argued that this wasn’t the case.

But that doesn’t then, in turn, mean the LDS Church is in its ‘death spiral’. As much as some might hope.

Regards,
MG

Who said anything about a “death spiral”? You are reframing my words. Again. Stop doing that.

If you now agree with the data that the size of an LDS family is shrinking. Then it’s automatically the case that there’s a decline in what you claim is the lifeblood of the Church. This is very basic reasoning.

I have a question, I think your reasoning here is straightforward but it is not so clear what sort of problem is in view. It would seem families with four children still make the church grow. Not as fast as with larger families of course. If there is continuing trend where in families get yet smaller still that could start decreasing church size at some point. Is there reason to expect that? If there is a problem that actually creates a negative impact it also matter what percentage of children stay.

I remember some years ago it was a big story that the LDS church was the fastest growing and was projected to get huge. Growth has slowed since then but to all I am aware of it continues.