A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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bill4long
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

Post by bill4long »

Morley wrote:
Sun Jan 18, 2026 2:30 am
MsJack wrote:
Wed Jan 14, 2026 3:08 pm
Turner was asked about the witnesses at his 2024 MHA presentation and he made a pretty funny comment about how they're almost all Smiths and Whitmers and that's apparently supposed to be very convincing. I'm probably badly butchering what he said, but it was something like, "I'll remain unconvinced even if twenty more Smiths and Whitmers testify to it."
bill4long wrote:
Sat Jan 17, 2026 8:53 pm
:D
And John Turner has a certain dry kind of wit that's hilarious to me when he says stuff like that.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Jan 17, 2026 9:49 pm
He uses that line repeatedly. He used it at the Sunstone Conference up at the UofU this last summer in his keynote address.
Probably gets him some laughs every time. ;)
I think Mark Twain said it first:

"And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied if the rest of the entire Whitmer family had testified.”
Interesting fun fact:

They witnesses (or some of them) may have seen some plates that looked golden. It's easy to make copper look like gold/brass. Most people can't tell the difference between brass and gold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fmRfsep450

This technique was known amongst blacksmiths and metal workers in the 1820s.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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bill4long wrote:
Sun Jan 18, 2026 5:13 am
Interesting fun fact:

They witnesses (or some of them) may have seen some plates that looked golden. It's easy to make copper look like gold/brass. Most people can't tell the difference between brass and gold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fmRfsep450

This technique was known amongst blacksmiths and metal workers in the 1820s.
I am currently reading Turner’s Joseph Smith biography. It has been quite good so far, though it has mostly served as a refresher of events and themes I had already encountered in earlier biographies. One intriguing suggestion appears in footnote 28 of chapter three and echoes your comment above: that the prop Smith used to persuade others he had actually found ancient plates may have been a stack of copper printing plates, a stack of clichés used in the stereotyping process, or some combination of the two. That footnote led me to a fascinating 2021 paper by Sonia Hazard, in which she argues that Smith may have, in fact, created such a prop, supporting her claim with a range of circumstantial evidence. Hazard demonstrates that eyewitness descriptions of the gold plates—their size, weight, metallic appearance, right-to-left orientation, engraved or raised characters, binding with rings, and page-like format—closely resemble known printing plates used in early nineteenth-century American print culture.

Another interesting passage in Hazard’s paper quotes Joseph Smith Sr.:
One eyewitness claimed to have viewed images on the metal plates themselves (and not just a paper facsimile, as did Turner’s informant and Anthon). This was Joseph Smith Sr., Smith’s father and one of the Eight Witnesses, who said he recognized Masonic images on the plates. (The senior Smith was a Mason.) The second plate in the box, he attested, was decorated with “representations of all the Masonic implements, as used by masons at the present day.”
This passage is interesting on two counts. First, if the quote is to be believed, the description of plates stored in a box closely matches how stereotyped clichés were commonly stored. Second, it highlights an obvious anachronism: the presence of Masonic symbols on plates purportedly created in 600 AD or earlier—well before Freemasonry existed.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jan 20, 2026 10:47 pm
the prop Smith used to persuade others he had actually found ancient plates may have been a stack of copper printing plates, a stack of clichés used in the stereotyping process, or some combination of the two. That footnote led me to a fascinating 2021 paper by Sonia Hazard, in which she argues that Smith may have, in fact, created such a prop, supporting her claim with a range of circumstantial evidence. Hazard demonstrates that eyewitness descriptions of the gold plates—their size, weight, metallic appearance, right-to-left orientation, engraved or raised characters, binding with rings, and page-like format—closely resemble known printing plates used in early nineteenth-century American print culture.

Another interesting passage in Hazard’s paper quotes Joseph Smith Sr.:
One eyewitness claimed to have viewed images on the metal plates themselves (and not just a paper facsimile, as did Turner’s informant and Anthon). This was Joseph Smith Sr., Smith’s father and one of the Eight Witnesses, who said he recognized Masonic images on the plates. (The senior Smith was a Mason.) The second plate in the box, he attested, was decorated with “representations of all the Masonic implements, as used by masons at the present day.”
This passage is interesting on two counts. First, if the quote is to be believed, the description of plates stored in a box closely matches how stereotyped clichés were commonly stored. Second, it highlights an obvious anachronism: the presence of Masonic symbols on plates purportedly created in 600 AD or earlier—well before Freemasonry existed.
Yes! Do you have a link to this paper?: 2021 paper by Sonia Hazard

nvm found it: How Joseph Smith Encountered Printing Plates and Founded Mormonism
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jan 20, 2026 10:47 pm
bill4long wrote:
Sun Jan 18, 2026 5:13 am
Interesting fun fact:

They witnesses (or some of them) may have seen some plates that looked golden. It's easy to make copper look like gold/brass. Most people can't tell the difference between brass and gold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fmRfsep450

This technique was known amongst blacksmiths and metal workers in the 1820s.
I am currently reading Turner’s Joseph Smith biography. It has been quite good so far, though it has mostly served as a refresher of events and themes I had already encountered in earlier biographies. One intriguing suggestion appears in footnote 28 of chapter three and echoes your comment above: that the prop Smith used to persuade others he had actually found ancient plates may have been a stack of copper printing plates, a stack of clichés used in the stereotyping process, or some combination of the two. That footnote led me to a fascinating 2021 paper by Sonia Hazard, in which she argues that Smith may have, in fact, created such a prop, supporting her claim with a range of circumstantial evidence. Hazard demonstrates that eyewitness descriptions of the gold plates—their size, weight, metallic appearance, right-to-left orientation, engraved or raised characters, binding with rings, and page-like format—closely resemble known printing plates used in early nineteenth-century American print culture.

Another interesting passage in Hazard’s paper quotes Joseph Smith Sr.:
One eyewitness claimed to have viewed images on the metal plates themselves (and not just a paper facsimile, as did Turner’s informant and Anthon). This was Joseph Smith Sr., Smith’s father and one of the Eight Witnesses, who said he recognized Masonic images on the plates. (The senior Smith was a Mason.) The second plate in the box, he attested, was decorated with “representations of all the Masonic implements, as used by masons at the present day.”
This passage is interesting on two counts. First, if the quote is to be believed, the description of plates stored in a box closely matches how stereotyped clichés were commonly stored. Second, it highlights an obvious anachronism: the presence of Masonic symbols on plates purportedly created in 600 AD or earlier—well before Freemasonry existed.
Interesting. Thanks.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jan 20, 2026 10:47 pm
That footnote led me to a fascinating 2021 paper by Sonia Hazard, in which she argues that Smith may have, in fact, created such a prop, supporting her claim with a range of circumstantial evidence. Hazard demonstrates that eyewitness descriptions of the gold plates—their size, weight, metallic appearance, right-to-left orientation, engraved or raised characters, binding with rings, and page-like format—closely resemble known printing plates used in early nineteenth-century American print culture.

Another interesting passage in Hazard’s paper quotes Joseph Smith Sr.:
One eyewitness claimed to have viewed images on the metal plates themselves (and not just a paper facsimile, as did Turner’s informant and Anthon). This was Joseph Smith Sr., Smith’s father and one of the Eight Witnesses, who said he recognized Masonic images on the plates. (The senior Smith was a Mason.) The second plate in the box, he attested, was decorated with “representations of all the Masonic implements, as used by masons at the present day.”
This passage is interesting on two counts. First, if the quote is to be believed, the description of plates stored in a box closely matches how stereotyped clichés were commonly stored. Second, it highlights an obvious anachronism: the presence of Masonic symbols on plates purportedly created in 600 AD or earlier—well before Freemasonry existed.
Thank you for sharing this, FS. An interesting addition to Joseph Smith Sr’s description is captured in the paper here:
which would also explain Anthon’s stars, moons, and crosses, all of which featured in Masonic symbology.
The following is a great question too—I think Vogel has put forth an idea about tin plates, but printing plates seem a much better fit:
Why has the simplest answer to the mystery of the plates that Smith had access to material plates rarely been considered by critical historical scholarship?
I had not seen this account from Pratt before—from the paper:
Orson Pratt, who was close to Joseph Smith but not a physical witness to the plates, announced in two sermons that witnesses had testified to seeing a black residue applied to the letters. In one sermon, recorded in published proceedings, Pratt noted that the letterforms were stained with a black, hard stain, so as to make the letters more legible and easier to be read. In a different sermon, published as reminiscences by a congregant, Pratt reportedly described how the engravings were filled with black l cement, evocative of recessed intaglio characters rather than the raised relief surface of stereotype plates. In both accounts, the mysterious black substance invites comparison to standard printing ink. If stereotype plates had not been cleaned thoroughly, a patina of ink would have remained on the raised letterforms. An inky residue would have been embedded in the fine grooves of even a cleaned copper plate
That’s second hand, but I wonder why Orson would even mention it?

Another interesting point:
Smith’s aside about the location of the title page is worth underlining. It was the very last leaf on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates. At first blush, Smith appears inconsistent, for he said the title page was located on the left indicating that one would read the plates, as in a Western book, from left to right while at the same time, the plates individually read from right to left, in the manner of languages such as Hebrew. This would be incongruous in virtually all situations except for printing plate storage. In the boxes of stereotype plates, preserved in their original nineteenth-century storage boxes, at the Library Company (figure 3), the plates are organized with the lower page numbers at the left. In the first box, the title page plate may be found as the last plate on the far left side of the box precisely in the position Smith described. The printing-plates hypothesis comes into view because of the buildup of particulars like these, not owing to any smoking gun.
Agreed, although I’m not sure how many grains of sand it would take to come to a heaping conclusion. I agree with the following also:
Overall, early Mormon sources require interpreters to proceed with caution and not to take any one document as proof positive for the existence of the plates or for a list of their exact characteristics. It is only when collected together that the converging textual evidence increasingly comes to resemble a description of a set of printing plates.
I’m not sure why the account below is considered “fact”—the paper goes on to say that Joseph didn’t report seeing plates until 1832. Joseph could have acquired copper printing plates anytime between 1823 and 1827, he simply never said anything about their acquisition until much later.
Recall that Smith reported first seeing the plates in 1823, but he was only able to recover them in 1827. One possibility is that Smith encountered printing plates in 1823 or earlier, feasibly in a local printing shop, inspiring his 1823 vision. A second option is that Smith’s familiarity with the Hebrew Bible stimulated his 1823 notion of the plates, and only later, in the interval between 1823 and 1827, did Smith encounter material plates that gave concrete shape to his prior ideation. Third and finally, it could be that Smith really found material plates on the hill, just as he said he did, conceivably glimpsing them in 1823 and retrieving them in 1827.

….

Let us take a closer look at Smith s 1823 vision. Though there are no real-time sources for this event, there are post hoc accounts recorded by Smith beginning in 1832. His most complete account, from 1839, described what happened…
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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How likely is it that none of the 11 witnesses would have been able, from whatever experiences they had with the "gold" plates, to identify them as, or at least suggest that they were, in fact printing plates?
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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By 1821, roughly half of all Bibles printed in America were produced using stereotyping. Undoubtedly, Smith knew what stereotyping was before he retrieved the plates in 1827, and likely even before the first purported visit by Moroni (or was it Nephi?) in 1823. He was almost certainly familiar with how stereotyping differed from conventional typesetting. The 1828 Phinney Bible that Smith owned and used in his biblical “translation”—the same Bible the church recently purchased for $20 million—was a stereotype Bible that H. & E. Phinney had been publishing from the same clichés (stereotype plates) since 1822. Phinney continued printing Bibles from these plates until 1848, when a fire destroyed them.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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malkie wrote:
Wed Jan 21, 2026 12:43 am
How likely is it that none of the 11 witnesses would have been able, from whatever experiences they had with the "gold" plates, to identify them as, or at least suggest that they were, in fact printing plates?
I think it’s just as likely as it would have been if there were nothing at all. Without solid evidence this is all speculation.

But, in the interest of discussion, I’ve explained before that I think the witnesses were coerced, though that coercion worked through a subdued conscience rather than force, and that the acquisition of the plates was morally suspect.

All of that said, it may not matter whether there were printing plates, a prop, or nothing at all. If our study of Abraham and its implications for Mormon thought is sound, Joseph was able to secure belief and obedience through relinquished authority and constrained conscience, not through evidence.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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malkie wrote:
Wed Jan 21, 2026 12:43 am
How likely is it that none of the 11 witnesses would have been able, from whatever experiences they had with the "gold" plates, to identify them as, or at least suggest that they were, in fact printing plates?
It is possible that Smith acquired plates inscribed in a foreign language, or even plates taken from a book using a shorthand writing system. Hazard’s article includes a striking image on page 166 of a plate used for a shorthand system; many of the characters in that image closely resemble the squiggles in the famous “charactors” document. Hazard’s article is particularly interesting because she proposes plausible ways in which Smith could have procured or fabricated such a prop. Her conjectures, in my view, are far more likely than the claim that an angel simply handed them to him.
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Re: A new Joseph Smith biography ‘John G. Turner, Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of An American Prophet’

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Fence Sitter wrote:
Wed Jan 21, 2026 1:18 am
Her conjectures, in my view, are far more likely than the claim that an angel simply handed them to him.
Same—I’m positive malkie agrees with this as well, but the rigor applied to the thinking is welcome.
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