Nephi-ception

[Limnor]

The Jared identified Ether chapter 8.

I see it like this: Jacom, Gilgah, Mahan, and Orihah

It's Mahah.

<snip>

Not particularly flattering.

Right. I can hardly imagine Joseph secreting the woman he just married in that manner within the context of his book.

I just can't do that. It doesn't work for me.

See Matthew 14 (daughter of Herodias) for Smith's inspiration on this matter. The Bible is the key.

I can see why that doesn’t work for you. However, you’ve already stated Joseph appears as multiple characters: Nephi, Mormon, and others. If that’s the case, couldn’t the same methodology apply to Emma, or Martin Harris, or Oliver Cowdery?

[Shulem]

I can see why that doesn’t work for you. However, you’ve already stated Joseph appears as multiple characters: Nephi, Mormon, and others. If that’s the case, couldn’t the same methodology apply to Emma, or Martin Harris, or Oliver Cowdery?

It's all about JOSEPH SMITH and everyone else is of little consequence with the exception of his father, Joseph Smith Sr., in whom he adored.

Think of Joseph of Egypt using guile to fool his brethren into thinking he could divine with a silver cup found in a bag of grain. Remember that? Well, that's Joseph Smith coming to life with his pretended gold plates and magic rock in a hat.

It's always about Joseph/Trump. Everyone else is a pretty much a footnote.

[Limnor]

I think our difference is that you see Joseph as the only real character, where I think Joseph encoded other real people as well.

One piece of evidence is the use of code names in later revelations. For example, the D&C encoded Joseph as “Baurak Ale,” Oliver Cowdery as “Olihah,” and Sidney Rigdon as “Pelagoram.”

Joseph was willing to encode real people when circumstances called for it—particularly when under pressure or in trouble—and I believe that methodology was present in the book as well.

Joseph didn’t seem to be especially careful about hiding the identities either. The number of names beginning with “Oli-” makes it fairly obvious. It’s not a particularly sophisticated encryption. Which I suppose for a young, uneducated man makes sense.

I’m not sure it matters all that much, but it has been very interesting to try and work out those characters.

I appreciate the engagement, thank you.

[Shulem]

I think our difference is that you see Joseph as the only real character, where I think Joseph encoded other real people as well.

Yes, in that we pretty much differ.

One piece of evidence is the use of code names in later revelations. For example, the D&C encoded Joseph as “Baurak Ale,” Oliver Cowdery as “Olihah,” and Sidney Rigdon as “Pelagoram.”

All this is after the fact. Evidence on how the D&C was secretly constructed is not evidence for the Book of Mormon which is in a class of its own. Smith had years to think about the stories he wanted to present in his book and by the time he began to translate (dictate) with Martin Harris he was chock-full of stories in his head. The loss of the 116 pages was a terrible setback but he readjusted his position and found a way to get out it by making himself the main character in the books of Nephi.

[Limnor]

I think our difference is that you see Joseph as the only real character, where I think Joseph encoded other real people as well.

Yes, in that we pretty much differ.

One piece of evidence is the use of code names in later revelations. For example, the D&C encoded Joseph as “Baurak Ale,” Oliver Cowdery as “Olihah,” and Sidney Rigdon as “Pelagoram.”

All this is after the fact. Evidence on how the D&C was secretly constructed is not evidence for the Book of Mormon which is in a class of its own. Smith had years to think about the stories he wanted to present in his book and by the time he began to translate (dictate) with Martin Harris he was chock-full of stories in his head. The loss of the 116 pages was a terrible setback but he readjusted his position and found a way to get out it by making himself the main character in the books of Nephi.

I agree it doesn’t prove the Book of Mormon was written the same way. I only see it as evidence that Joseph was willing to encode real people in religious texts, and that those around him were willing to go along with it.

[Shulem]

...Joseph was willing to encode real people in religious texts...

That much we agree, rock solid. And that's good!

[Kishkumen]

Everything evolves around the selfish and self-centered nature of Joseph Smith playing various roles in the book. His family was a mere sidenote and was kept hidden lest anyone discover them in the story and figure out the whole f-ing riddle.

There is a lot of truth in this, and it continues to be the case today. One of the keys to understanding this is to note how Joseph Smith is always at the center of discussions about Mormonism. It’s baked in. It would be much more interesting to focus on teachings, etc., but in the LDS Church, personality cult is too strong to get away from it. So we get videos about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, defending them as people. On the one hand, the lively back and forth is fascinating, but the fact that personalities are so often the center of the debate gets tiresome.

[Limnor]

It’s almost hard to *not* talk about the person of Joseph Smith when studying the book, as I see his life reflected throughout. For example, in Helaman 9 I see a Nephi who seems comfortable allowing people to consider him a god, and I wonder how much of his self-view was driven from the inside vs influenced by those outside.