Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Shulem]

You said “please listen to me” at the beginning of your post, and I’m finding myself wondering why you would say that, because I don’t think I’m ignoring your model. I understand that your model places Mormon, the geography, and much of the story back into Joseph’s pre-1827 years. And I agree with much of it.

That's good.

What I’m not seeing is why those possibilities should be treated as established facts. Lucy doesn’t say he was already using the name Mormon or had Delmarva mapped out. That’s really where I’m hung up.

Nor did Lucy cite the name "Moroni" in her autobiography when describing the happenstance of the angel in great detail. Moroni's name is NOT mentioned by Lucy as a name revealed to her son prior to acquiring the plates. But Joseph testified in writing how the name Moroni was pre-known to him when the angel first appeared in September of 1823. Mother Smith just doesn't name the angel. Simple as that. And I don't think she knew anything about Delmarva which was Joseph's best kept secret.

I think the Mosiah Priority offers a keen look at how the Book of Mormon unfolded in the way it did.

Now, when considering Lucy's statement about how her young son told stories it seems quite reasonable that he also included names (personal pronouns) in telling those fantastic stories. Every story has characters and characters have names!

• "he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent" People have names!
• "animals upon which they rode" Animals have names too!
• "their cities" Cities have names!
• "with every particular" DETAILS!
• "religious worship" We get that also in the Book of Mormon!
• "as if he had spent his whole life with them" Then he must have known some names! How about Mormon?

I’m still pondering “why” King Noah would name the place the way he did, though.

The description in the text expresses the definition of the name Mormon in a very positive manner: More-Good/Much-Good. You agree how the sequence of the text in Mosiah proves that king Noah was responsible for naming the land and he did so rather appropriately according to Smith's definition of the name. Hence, the land and waters utilized by Alma were aptly called after the name of Mormon rather than some other name. The name stuck and they did not call it by any other name! They baptized in "the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called)."

Notice how a single phrase of praise contains the name Mormon repeatedly and expresses everything as if it were MORE GOOD:

And now it came to pass that all this was done in Mormon, yea, by the waters of Mormon, in the forest that was near the waters of Mormon; yea, the place of Mormon, the waters of Mormon, the forest of Mormon, how beautiful are they...

6x Mormon
3x waters
2x forest

[Limnor]

king Noah was responsible for naming the land and he did so rather appropriately according to Smith's definition of the name. Hence, the land and waters utilized by Alma were aptly called after the name of Mormon rather than some other name. The name stuck and they did not call it by any other name! They baptized in "the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called)."

In your model, could the “place of Mormon” itself represent the Smith family farm? If Joseph “is” Mormon, and there is a place called Mormon, waters of Mormon, and a forest of Mormon, couldn’t Joseph be writing about his surroundings? The Smith farm had woods and water running through the property.

[Shulem]

In your model, could the “place of Mormon” itself represent the Smith family farm? If Joseph “is” Mormon, and there is a place called Mormon, waters of Mormon, and a forest of Mormon, couldn’t Joseph be writing about his surroundings? The Smith farm had woods and water running through the property.

No, the Smith family farm has no representation in the land of Nephi wherein the land of Mormon was located, just north of Shilom and Shemlon in the tail of Delmarva which was surrounded by water. Cumorah and the surrounding areas is the Smith family farm -- near large bodies of water which are the Great Lakes.

Now, when considering Lucy's statement about how her young son told stories it seems quite reasonable that he also included names (personal pronouns) in telling those fantastic stories. Every story has characters and characters have names!

• "he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent" (People have names!)

Lucy,

In the four years Joseph prepared to receive the gold plates from the hill Cumorah, how much detail did your boy actually provide in describing the ancient inhabitants of this continent, in particular the western tribes of Indians? You stated in your autobiography that Joseph even described "their dress," presumably the dark skinned Lamanites. Can you elaborate on that? Do you think what he described as a youth was pretty much what he described later when translating the plates? Do you recall any names Joseph gave to any of the characters or heroes in his stories? Did he ever mention the name Mormon?

• "animals upon which they rode" (Animals have names too!)

Oh, you must be referring to the horses which we read all about in the Book of Mormon. Did Joseph tell how the ancient inhabitants rode real horses the same as people do today? Did he ever tell a story about a strong man by the name of Ammon who loved to ride horses and was an expert with a slingshot?

• "their cities" (Cities have names!)

Lucy, please think hard, do you recall Joseph naming any of the cities in which he described? You also stated that he described things "with every particular", so surely he must have given the name of at least one of those cities. Can you recall a name, please? Did he mention the cities of Zarahemla or Bountiful?

from another thread:

Not related but: In my quest to source Book of Mormon names I was reminded that many of the proper names found in the Book of Mormon were cribbed from the Bible and/or apocryphal.. Such names as Nephi, Ether, Enos, Esrom, Gad, Helem, Helam, Heth, Kish, Laban, Lemuel, Nimrah, Nimrod, to name just a few.

Recall how Smith's official history states that "Moroni" announced himself by name when telling him about the gold plates that were buried not far from his home. Thus, Smith admits to knowing the name Moroni when just 17 years old. He had four years to prepare before having to dictate a single word to his scribes while his face was buried in a hat and the plates were wrapped up in cloth. Joseph Smith was loaded for bear and ready to tell stories that were already in his mind. He was well prepared! And you won't get that from apologists and ignorant faithful do-gooders who claim nobody could have produced the Book of Mormon on such short notice.

Now, Smith claimed that Moroni spent quite a bit of time with him on that first night when appearing to him. He cited scripture, prophesied about Joseph's mission, and related matters of the gold plates and the ancient inhabitants. Surely Moroni told Joseph about his son Mormon who gave him the plates prior to being killed in battle! Surely Moroni told about how Mormon died in a war near the hill in which the plates were buried!

And there you have it! The bomb.

[Rivendale]

In your model, could the “place of Mormon” itself represent the Smith family farm? If Joseph “is” Mormon, and there is a place called Mormon, waters of Mormon, and a forest of Mormon, couldn’t Joseph be writing about his surroundings? The Smith farm had woods and water running through the property.

No, the Smith family farm has no representation in the land of Nephi wherein the land of Mormon was located, just north of Shilom and Shemlon in the tail of Delmarva which was surrounded by water. Cumorah and the surrounding areas is the Smith family farm -- near large bodies of water which are the Great Lakes.

Now, when considering Lucy's statement about how her young son told stories it seems quite reasonable that he also included names (personal pronouns) in telling those fantastic stories. Every story has characters and characters have names!

• "he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent" (People have names!)

Lucy,

In the four years Joseph prepared to receive the gold plates from the hill Cumorah, how much detail did your boy actually provide in describing the ancient inhabitants of this continent, in particular the western tribes of Indians? You stated in your autobiography that Joseph even described "their dress," presumably the dark skinned Lamanites. Can you elaborate on that? Do you think what he described as a youth was pretty much what he described later when translating the plates? Do you recall any names Joseph gave to any of the characters or heroes in his stories? Did he ever mention the name Mormon?

• "animals upon which they rode" (Animals have names too!)

Oh, you must be referring to the horses which we read all about in the Book of Mormon. Did Joseph tell how the ancient inhabitants rode real horses the same as people do today? Did he ever tell a story about a strong man by the name of Ammon who loved to ride horses and was an expert with a slingshot?

• "their cities" (Cities have names!)

Lucy, please think hard, do you recall Joseph naming any of the cities in which he described? You also stated that he described things "with every particular", so surely he must have given the name of at least one of those cities. Can you recall a name, please? Did he mention the cities of Zarahemla or Bountiful?

from another thread:

Not related but: In my quest to source Book of Mormon names I was reminded that many of the proper names found in the Book of Mormon were cribbed from the Bible and/or apocryphal.. Such names as Nephi, Ether, Enos, Esrom, Gad, Helem, Helam, Heth, Kish, Laban, Lemuel, Nimrah, Nimrod, to name just a few.

Recall how Smith's official history states that "Moroni" announced himself by name when telling him about the gold plates that were buried not far from his home. Thus, Smith admits to knowing the name Moroni when just 17 years old. He had four years to prepare before having to dictate a single word to his scribes while his face was buried in a hat and the plates were wrapped up in cloth. Joseph Smith was loaded for bear and ready to tell stories that were already in his mind. He was well prepared! And you won't get that from apologists and ignorant faithful do-gooders who claim nobody could have produced the Book of Mormon on such short notice.

Now, Smith claimed that Moroni spent quite a bit of time with him on that first night when appearing to him. He cited scripture, prophesied about Joseph's mission, and related matters of the gold plates and the ancient inhabitants. Surely Moroni told Joseph about his son Mormon who gave him the plates prior to being killed in battle! Surely Moroni told about how Mormon died in a war near the hill in which the plates were buried!

And there you have it! The bomb.

I always wondered why these reanimated native Americans and the two gods had conversations with Joseph sometimes in tremendous detail and yet when it was time to produce the Book of Mormon they simply did not have the time to tell Joseph what to write but instead opted for parlor trick antics and occultic magic. They had to know this would introduce Joseph's selective wordings including local vernacular including rustic yokel slang.

[Shulem]

I always wondered why these reanimated native Americans and the two gods had conversations with Joseph sometimes in tremendous detail and yet when it was time to produce the Book of Mormon they simply did not have the time to tell Joseph what to write but instead opted for parlor trick antics and occultic magic. They had to know this would introduce Joseph's selective wordings including local vernacular including rustic yokel slang.

It's my understanding that expert DNA analysis has proven there is no DNA connection between the western tribes of Indians and the Jews/Israel. That is a Mormon pipe dream based on a false story produced from Smith's religious bias! Simon Southerton has been kind enough to explain these matters on this board:

• Luckless Nephite DNA and the Maya
• Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
• My "LDS Church Growth" Hobby Horse
• Mexican horse manure - a new low for Mormon apologetics
• DNA vs the Book of Mormon (DNA BoMs)
• Former Head of BYU Anthropology Department thinks Mesoamerican LG theory is "preposterous"
• 36 years of DNA research on Native Americans fails to detect Lehite, Jaredite and Mulekite DNA.
• A brief history of the lies of Ugo Perego: the author of the Church’s Book of Mormon and DNA Studies essay.

Now, let's look again at Joseph Smith's claims:

The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western Tribes of Indians, having been found through the ministration of an holy Angel translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for the last fourteen hundred years containing the word of God, which was delivered unto them, By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them, and unto it all the tribes of Israel will come.

No, the western tribes of Indians are not descendants of the any of the tribes of Israel. Smith's claims are pure fiction. DNA is proof of that. It's science against Mormonism and Mormonism has lost on all fronts. Also notice how Smith says "translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for the last fourteen hundred years containing the word of God." Imagine applying that same standard across the board to the Book of Abraham papyri that he discovered a couple years after making that statement.

Let's compare by plugging Smith's doctrinal claim into the Book of Abraham and see how it works:

The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers....translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for the last fourteen hundred years containing the word of God

The Book of Abraham & Facsimiles is a record of the forefathers....translated into our own Language by the gift and power of God, after having been hid up in the earth for three thousand five hundred years containing the word of God

Does anyone in the bloody Mormon church today really believe the Book of Abraham & Facsimiles are real translations from Egyptian into English?



Mormonism is unscientific! Mormon apologists are liars, all of them! Take the Book of Abraham and the Facsimile Explanations and shove them where the sun doesn't shine, baby. The Mormon church has lost! Book of Abraham apologists are liars and have sold their souls to the evils of Satanic Mormonism.

Dear Readers:

The 11-15-24 is not critical cherry-picking or simply a matter of trying to find typological or numerological bullseyes between Mormon and Joseph Smith but is a combination based on absolutes that mate perfectly with important life events, two of which are remarkably rare from a mathematical perspective and highly improbable within the human experience: seeing Jesus at age 15 and digging up ancient plates at age 24. These similarities between two persons are the kind of things that happen in dreams and imaginary stories, not real life. One can hardly dismiss the idea that Smith embedded biographical milestones of his own life into fiction expressed in the Book of Mormon. Nonbelievers will instantly recognize that Smith invented fiction using his own life by narcissistically writing himself into the story and pretending to be something he is not. Believers, such as Don Bradley, will see it simply as a recurring pattern or parallel that testifies how young prophets in different dispensations are called to the same kind of work. Thus, the original archetype of 11-15-24 would not be fully deciphered until Shulem on Discuss Mormonism unpacked this secret 19th-century hoax and explained it so everyone can clearly see the big picture.

I sincerely hope you have enjoyed this thread and learned something. I have!

Thank you,

Shulem

From reddit:
Evidence for Joseph Writing the Book of Mormon

• Read Mormon chapter 1 in the Book of Mormon. Replace the name Mormon with the name Joseph. You will think you are reading Joseph Smith's history.
• Enos is one of Joe's alter egos. The book of Enos is the first vision

ENOS [Joseph Smith Jr]

1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos JOSEPH SMITH JR, knowing my father [Joseph Smith Sr] that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it....



Come on, Bradley-boy, bring your drunken parallels (and a blow for your nose) or some crack cocaine so we can sing a new song to the glory of JOSEPH!



U fool.

You're a Mormon drunk, Bradley. You're drunk!

Don Bradley, you're a punk. A cheap dime store hood. A coward.



Joe Smith sucks mine.