Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

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Gadianton
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Gadianton »

Lem wrote:To my nonprofessional understanding, not finding something that showed persistence beyond the Early Modern English timeframe, using a British corpus, is NOT the same as there being no persistence, because colonial language development lagged behind British language, and an American corpus would likely contain elements that reflect this, thus likely showing more persistence.
I had misunderstood something you said. This is perfectly reasonable and explains the issue.
Carmack wrote:It would be a time-consuming task to thoroughly verify its demise in the Eighteenth Century Collections Online database, since it isn’t amenable to precise syntactic searches
Oh wow, awesome find. That has to be it. So I have to wonder what changed. I wonder how the "precise syntactic search" issue was resolved.

I also wonder why you would print your results that could only be pretty tentative at best in an immaculately bound volume that costs 100$, as if it would be the final word of everything. That takes a lot of hubris.
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Dr Exiled »

Sr. Carmack still persists:

It is hard to find any stronger evidence bearing on the Book of Mormon authorship issue than the following.

Two very strong indicators that Joseph Smith did not author the Book of Mormon are the personal relative pronoun pattern and the verb complementation pattern. I invite anyone to find modern texts with these patterns. Wide-ranging comparative studies indicate that no one proposed as an author of the Book of Mormon would have produced these patterns. The past-tense pattern is another pervasive one which, with the support of these two, clearly indicate the early modern nature of the syntax. There are other patterns, both large and small, that accord with these patterns, which evince early modern sensibilities.
https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73 ... 1210002112
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Lem »

I think I have found a possible additional issue with the use of the databases over the years in this Early Modern English research. (This is a draft, so I'll clean it up, but I wanted to get the idea out there to see what people think. )

In 2016, Cormack wrote about the phrase "the more part," using EEBO(late 1400s-1700) and Google book search (1700-1830), and also BYU professor Mark Davies COHA data base for a crucial conclusion, as noted in footnotes 5 and 13.

Link to paper, "The more part of the Book of Mormon is Early Modern English" :
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

Here's his conclusion, roughly, regarding the phrase "the more part" in Google books:
Google books yielded approximately 80 hits of “the more part of ” in the modern period,12 but many were duplicates, and the rest were almost all reprints of legal language from the Early Modern era (primarily the 16th century).

...Google books thus verifies the obsolescence of the construction; a modern American attestation is lacking at this time.[footnote] 13 The phrase “the more part of ” appears to have been virtually extinct by the year 1700, barely surviving as legal boilerplate in the British realm.
Footnote 13 reads in total:
13. See note 5
And here is the text leading up to footnote 5:
So we learn that the usage arose no later than the late Middle English period and that it continued into the Early Modern era. Even though most OED quotations occur before the 17th century, the last-dated example in the dictionary is surprisingly late — 1871. This was a conscious, scholarly use by an Oxford historian, Edward Freeman, apparently well-versed in old historical writings such as Holinshed’s Chronicles — heavily used by Shakespeare — which employed many instances of “the more part (of )”.[footnote]5.
And the text of footnote 5.
5. Davies’ Corpus of Historical American English shows the use of the phrase "the more part of" only four times, in a single 1882 book, Hopes and Fears for Art, by an English author who was educated in the classics at Oxford and a devotee of medieval subjects and Chaucer. William Morris, similar to Freeman, would have learned the phraseology by studying earlier writings, and consciously employed it in his book. Mark Davies, The Corpus of Historical American English: 400 million words, 1810–2009 (2010–) [‹ http:/ / corpus.BYU.edu / coha ›].

Carmack's logic is a little convoluted, but as I understand it, in conclusion he is using footnote 5 in support of this:
The phrase “the more part of” appears to have been virtually extinct by the year 1700
Here's the problem. He concluded all Google hits were early modern English reprints, used an EEBO database that ranges up to 1700, and then used Davies' database which only STARTS in 1810. From that he concludes that the phrase was extinct by 1700, as supported by only related outlier use in 1871 and 1882 with no other appearances, apparently without using the ECCO database, which would have covered that missing century.

By the time he readdresses the term "for the most part" in his 2020 paper, "Pitfalls of the NGram Viewer," he is using ECCO. In it he finds many usages of the phrase from the missing century, but still tweaks the results to fit his hypothesis.

First, he does note, again, how difficult it is to fully search ECCO:

Nevertheless, there is some original use of “the more part of X” in the 1700s. But there is very little, and it is hard to know how much there actually is. We would have to wade through more than 600 instances, using the difficult ECCO interface, in order to find perhaps two or three originals. (ECCO currently gives 624 results, with many duplicates.)

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us
Carmack substitutes a similar phrase to compare, and concludes this:

ECCO popularity chart comparing “the more part of them” with “most of them” makes it clear that the latter was the operative phrase in the 18th century, not “the more part of them” (Figure 18). (The usage rate of “the majority of them” was also quite low during this century.) What looks like low-level modern usage of the archaic phrase is, in very large part, just noise emanating from reprinted language.
So even though he now finds persistence of the phrase when using ECCO, he concludes it is "noise." Again, even though better sources showed persistence NOT in support of his Early Modern English hypothesis, he changes the rules of analysis to conclude it really does.

This is only one example, but it doesn't suggest confidence in the methodology used to conclude that the Book of Mormon is Early Modern English.

All I can say is Interpreter's peer review seems to be falling down on the job.
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by dastardly stem »

Lem wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:44 pm
I think I have found a possible additional issue with the use of the databases over the years in this Early Modern English research. (This is a draft, so I'll clean it up, but I wanted to get the idea out there to see what people think. )

In 2016, Cormack wrote about the phrase "the more part," using EEBO(late 1400s-1700) and Google book search (1700-1830), and also BYU professor Mark Davies COHA data base for a crucial conclusion, as noted in footnotes 5 and 13.

Link to paper, "The more part of the Book of Mormon is Early Modern English" :
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

Here's his conclusion, roughly, regarding the phrase "the more part" in Google books:
Google books yielded approximately 80 hits of “the more part of ” in the modern period,12 but many were duplicates, and the rest were almost all reprints of legal language from the Early Modern era (primarily the 16th century).

...Google books thus verifies the obsolescence of the construction; a modern American attestation is lacking at this time.[footnote] 13 The phrase “the more part of ” appears to have been virtually extinct by the year 1700, barely surviving as legal boilerplate in the British realm.
Footnote 13 reads in total:
13. See note 5
And here is the text leading up to footnote 5:
So we learn that the usage arose no later than the late Middle English period and that it continued into the Early Modern era. Even though most OED quotations occur before the 17th century, the last-dated example in the dictionary is surprisingly late — 1871. This was a conscious, scholarly use by an Oxford historian, Edward Freeman, apparently well-versed in old historical writings such as Holinshed’s Chronicles — heavily used by Shakespeare — which employed many instances of “the more part (of )”.[footnote]5.
And the text of footnote 5.
5. Davies’ Corpus of Historical American English shows the use of the phrase "the more part of" only four times, in a single 1882 book, Hopes and Fears for Art, by an English author who was educated in the classics at Oxford and a devotee of medieval subjects and Chaucer. William Morris, similar to Freeman, would have learned the phraseology by studying earlier writings, and consciously employed it in his book. Mark Davies, The Corpus of Historical American English: 400 million words, 1810–2009 (2010–) [‹ http:/ / corpus.BYU.edu / coha ›].

Carmack's logic is a little convoluted, but as I understand it, in conclusion he is using footnote 5 in support of this:
The phrase “the more part of” appears to have been virtually extinct by the year 1700
Here's the problem. He concluded all Google hits were early modern English reprints, used an EEBO database that ranges up to 1700, and then used Davies' database which only STARTS in 1810. From that he concludes that the phrase was extinct by 1700, as supported by only related outlier use in 1871 and 1882 with no other appearances, apparently without using the ECCO database, which would have covered that missing century.

By the time he readdresses the term "for the most part" in his 2020 paper, "Pitfalls of the NGram Viewer," he is using ECCO. In it he finds many usages of the phrase from the missing century, but still tweaks the results to fit his hypothesis.

First, he does note, again, how difficult it is to fully search ECCO:

Nevertheless, there is some original use of “the more part of X” in the 1700s. But there is very little, and it is hard to know how much there actually is. We would have to wade through more than 600 instances, using the difficult ECCO interface, in order to find perhaps two or three originals. (ECCO currently gives 624 results, with many duplicates.)

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us
Carmack substitutes a similar phrase to compare, and concludes this:

ECCO popularity chart comparing “the more part of them” with “most of them” makes it clear that the latter was the operative phrase in the 18th century, not “the more part of them” (Figure 18). (The usage rate of “the majority of them” was also quite low during this century.) What looks like low-level modern usage of the archaic phrase is, in very large part, just noise emanating from reprinted language.
So even though he now finds persistence of the phrase when using ECCO, he concludes it is "noise." Again, even though better sources showed persistence NOT in support of his Early Modern English hypothesis, he changes the rules of analysis to conclude it really does.

This is only one example, but it doesn't suggest confidence in the methodology used to conclude that the Book of Mormon is Early Modern English.

All I can say is Interpreter's peer review seems to be falling down on the job.
I know it's a stolen idea, but....

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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Lem »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:51 pm

I know it's a stolen idea, but....

https://c.tenor.com/sf-BUK_AAmYAAAAM/ro ... adbang.gif
Thank you, dastardly! :D
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Moksha »

Could this be the source for the Book of Mormon? https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/n ... 405523002/
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Physics Guy »

Carmack wrote:What looks like low-level modern usage of the archaic phrase is, in very large part, just noise emanating from reprinted language [emphasis added].
If we're trying to decide whether a certain phrase was colloquial in a certain place and time, then Carmack's point here seems legitimate. Some phrases may appear in print today as quotations from earlier eras, even though everyone today thinks that those phrases are too weird to use in normal speech. So if you're trying to decide whether "But soft!" is a common exclamation in 2020 by looking at appearances in books that are in print in 2020, you have to discard a few quotations from Romeo and Juliet, and a few deliberate imitations of Shakespearian style, as mere noise.

But of course deciding whether or not somebody could have written a certain phrase in a certain era is not at all the same as deciding whether the phrase was colloquial in that era. The fact that you can still read Shakespeare in 2020 means that lots of people today are still familiar enough with Shakespearian language to imitate it on purpose if they want. Those reprintings of "But soft!" may be noise for the question of whether people in 2020 think that "But soft!" sounds like normal English but they are not noise at all for the question of whether a person in 2020 might be able to exclaim, "But soft!"

Carmack may be able to salvage his dignity with arguments like the one quoted, shrug off counterexamples and demonstrate that Book of Mormon language is indeed archaic for 1830 New England, as Carmack has said all this time. He can only win that argument, however, by abandoning any implication that archaism rules out Joseph Smith authorship. Low-level modern usage of archaic phrases is still quite enough to allow Smith to have repeated those phrases in an inept attempt to sound Biblical, regardless of whether that low-level modern usage was only reprinting of older language, or of whether those older phrases were regarded as weird and archaic in Smith's day and time.

If Book of Mormon apologetics were chess, Carmack would be trying to win by sacrificing his king.
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Dr Exiled »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 pm
Could this be the source for the Book of Mormon? https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/n ... 405523002/
The monolith could be the key to it all, a gateway to the ghostly realms, where Early Modern English is spoken with flourishes of scripture and divine approbation.

I bet if someone does some detective work, the monolith will date to around the time when the original Early Modern English theory hatched out of Skousen's ....
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Dr Exiled »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:11 am
Carmack wrote:What looks like low-level modern usage of the archaic phrase is, in very large part, just noise emanating from reprinted language [emphasis added].
If we're trying to decide whether a certain phrase was colloquial in a certain place and time, then Carmack's point here seems legitimate. Some phrases may appear in print today as quotations from earlier eras, even though everyone today thinks that those phrases are too weird to use in normal speech. So if you're trying to decide whether "But soft!" is a common exclamation in 2020 by looking at appearances in books that are in print in 2020, you have to discard a few quotations from Romeo and Juliet, and a few deliberate imitations of Shakespearian style, as mere noise.

But of course deciding whether or not somebody could have written a certain phrase in a certain era is not at all the same as deciding whether the phrase was colloquial in that era. The fact that you can still read Shakespeare in 2020 means that lots of people today are still familiar enough with Shakespearian language to imitate it on purpose if they want. Those reprintings of "But soft!" may be noise for the question of whether people in 2020 think that "But soft!" sounds like normal English but they are not noise at all for the question of whether a person in 2020 might be able to exclaim, "But soft!"

Carmack may be able to salvage his dignity with arguments like the one quoted, shrug off counterexamples and demonstrate that Book of Mormon language is indeed archaic for 1830 New England, as Carmack has said all this time. He can only win that argument, however, by abandoning any implication that archaism rules out Joseph Smith authorship. Low-level modern usage of archaic phrases is still quite enough to allow Smith to have repeated those phrases in an inept attempt to sound Biblical, regardless of whether that low-level modern usage was only reprinting of older language, or of whether those older phrases were regarded as weird and archaic in Smith's day and time.

If Book of Mormon apologetics were chess, Carmack would be trying to win by sacrificing his king.
Yes, but what of the tried and true argument of "how could Joseph, an uneducated farm boy, have known?" Joseph is defined by the apologists conveniently as someone that could not have possibly known any Early Modern English, 1611 Bible, or Shakespeare for that matter. Checkmate, buddy.
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Re: Carmack/Skousen: "Virtually none of the grammatical variants listed in section 4-archaic grammar are archaic."

Post by Gadianton »

Okay, yeah, basically Carmack is saying the the ECCO needs a good API, which might be a fair point, but it is what it is, and just because cleaning the attic might take a long time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Can't he get a couple of punks from MDB to help?

But again, great work showing his logic, Lem, Sic et Non really owes you for this in addition to all of us.

Yeah, what shows up in ECCO might tell you something, but this phrase may turn out to be one of those where analytics alone don't help. I tickled my inexpensive gaming keyboard with the phrase a few times tonight, looking for Bible connections. Yes, PG, the "Bible writing" angle should always be explored first.

"The more part" shows up in KJV, but more interestingly, in commentaries. KJV has two examples:
acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part advised to depart thence also,
Searching around was frustrating because several commentaries use the phrase, even when the archaic KJV doesn't put it that way. One example was Calvin's commentary -- hey hey! Ghost committee, anyone? But other more recent commentaries also use it. Again: I found this wording in commentaries explaining several other Bible passages that don't interpret the passage under commentary this way.

This commentary on Philippians 1-14, might be the way forward. It's the only one I found that explained themselves:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/comment ... -1-14.html
The most of the brethren (tou pleiona twn adelpwn). "The more part of the brethren." The comparative with the article with the sense of the superlative as often in the Koin.
I had to break out the children's dictionary to figure that one out. Whether or not Greek somehow implanted old English with it, via the Bible and expository literature on the Bible, the frequency of appearance is far less important when one specific kind of appearance is the smoking gun.
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