SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

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Lem
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Lem »

Dalgliesh's poetry stuff never featured much, I always felt it was more of a one off device used to introduce him as a person of letters when the murder happened in cultured society. I'm talking more about his relationships with women. In the Lighthouse, I think, or the Black Tower, he was back at his odd great aunt's secluded place after she passed and the reminiscing about his relationship with her was fascinating.

Elizabeth George's Lynley had a long-standing relationship that went through many books, it was a little irritating to see her have him attracted to a woman with such stereotypical (albeit amazing!) qualities, but the relationship he had with her, especially contrasted to his relationship with his "Jeeves" was utterly fascinating. How he treated other women was always discussed. Women definitely are not left out or consigned to 2-dimensional roles in George's books.
Hercule Poirot is a fine character but he sort of doesn't count as a test of being a believable male character because he's supposed to be a pretty unusual kind of guy, with few ordinary relationships and an obsession with grooming. I could always believe there could be men like that, just not very many.
:lol: Not been to Manhattan recently, I take it.

I'm glad you mentioned Dorothy Sayers! Harriet Vane's character is a treasure. That's how you write a woman! Gaudy Night was my favorite of all Sayers' books. I would recommend trying P.D. James' "An Unsuitable Job for a Woman" for a similar, although younger and less formerly and 'properly' educated, but still thoughtfully written as an extremely realistic and independent character.
Wrinkle in Time series long ago and liked it, but I remember thinking even then that the mother's great science was rather notional.
Well, to this little girl, growing up isolated in Mormon country, just reading a book where the Mom was talked about, not to mention smart and working was a rare thing, so I appreciated it greatly on my first pass. But that's why I mentioned the Austin family series, and the O'Keefe family, beyond the first couple. The female roles are much more developed. (not taking anything away from the mrs. Who, which, and whatsit. Just more human development.)

And I completely agree with your comment about Cherryh. The best piece I ever read from her was one of her earliest short stories where she explored the machine and person interface, but when it was expanded into book length, it wasn't that sustainable. I didn't read much of her after that. Her characterizations were very surface, If I recall correctly. But that's why I typically prefer the older stuff for characters and depth. Tiptree's writings about relationships between men and women are seriously unmatched.

I still would recommend The Children of Men, though, for characterization. That book was quite a departure from her usual genre, and stunningly well written. For fully developed characters and interactions between men and women in a somewhat sci fi setting it is superb.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I just placed a hold for Children of Men. Thanks for the recommendation!

- Doc

Note: I watched the movie a few times, so this’ll be a nice opportunity to understand the material from the author’s pov.
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Lem
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Lem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:24 pm
I just placed a hold for Children of Men. Thanks for the recommendation!

- Doc

Note: I watched the movie a few times, so this’ll be a nice opportunity to understand the material from the author’s pov.
My pleasure! Hope you enjoy it. That is an excellent movie. It is one of the few movies where I think the production did a very, very good job interpreting the book and capturing its spirit.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by mentalgymnast »

Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:12 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:08 pm
Flaws are part and parcel of natural evolution.
They are, indeed. But you're not talking about natural evolution, M. Gymnast. When you mention God's hand in the process, you're writing about intelligent design.
Thank you for that correction. Yes, I am referring to an evolutionary program set in motion and managed by an intelligent creator. Flaws would naturally be a part of that process also. But the overall creation 1.0 by an all knowing and perfect God, I contend, would not need improvement on some other world. A 1.5 or 2.0 creation. Obviously I can’t prove that, but from the point of view as taught through scriptural references in regards to God’s attributes, I think it makes sense that this world is created perfectly, and so are any others created by that same hand/means.

Regards,
MG
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Morley »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm
Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:12 pm


They are, indeed. But you're not talking about natural evolution, M. Gymnast. When you mention God's hand in the process, you're writing about intelligent design.
Thank you for that correction. Yes, I am referring to an evolutionary program set in motion and managed by an intelligent creator. Flaws would naturally be a part of that process also.
Why would the inclusion of basic design flaws naturally be a part of a process carried out by an omnipotent and loving god?

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm
I think it makes sense that this world is created perfectly, and so are any others created by that same hand/means.
Perfectly, but with naturally occurring flaws. Put there by God.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by mentalgymnast »

Morley wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:59 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm


Thank you for that correction. Yes, I am referring to an evolutionary program set in motion and managed by an intelligent creator. Flaws would naturally be a part of that process also.
Why would the inclusion of basic design flaws naturally be a part of a process carried out by an omnipotent and loving god?
I suppose one would have to ask the question pertaining to whether one believes in a magical sky god or a God who works through natural means/laws to carry out creation projects. I choose the latter.

You know what laws of nature govern evolution through mutation, gene flow, etc.

Regards,
MG
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by huckelberry »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:06 pm
Morley wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:59 pm


Why would the inclusion of basic design flaws naturally be a part of a process carried out by an omnipotent and loving god?
I suppose one would have to ask the question pertaining to whether one believes in a magical sky god or a God who works through natural means/laws to carry out creation projects. I choose the latter.

You know what laws of nature govern evolution through mutation, gene flow, etc.

Regards,
MG
MG, I am not sure I know what a magical sky god is but I am puzzled why you have not answered the question of why we would look like God by what I think would be the traditional Mormon answer, we are the same species.

That might carry its own puzzles but it avoids wondering if people on the other side of the galaxy would look like us.

To your question I might point out that theists of all sorts believe God acts through natural laws though they generally believe God is the source of those laws and determined what form and potential they have.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm
I am referring to an evolutionary program set in motion and managed by an intelligent creator. Flaws would naturally be a part of that process also. But the overall creation 1.0 by an all knowing and perfect God, I contend, would not need improvement on some other world. A 1.5 or 2.0 creation.
Help me here, exmo board members.

Am I right in thinking that:

(a) mentalgymnast is implying here that his deity goes from one place (planet? star system? galaxy?) to another, starting separate and sequential creations in each place? Like he (or she or it) has to turn up and press a switch or utter a word of command to set evolution from the primeval soup on its merry way?

(b) If (a), is that concept not borrowed from the narrative (acted out under circumstances to which I shall not refer), in which the decision to initiate such a creative act in one particular place is described as being taken? Because I can't think how else he can have come up with such a strange concept. The whole point about evolution is that is it entirely a chance-led process that does not require a divine act to get it started.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Res Ipsa »

Chap wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:04 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm
I am referring to an evolutionary program set in motion and managed by an intelligent creator. Flaws would naturally be a part of that process also. But the overall creation 1.0 by an all knowing and perfect God, I contend, would not need improvement on some other world. A 1.5 or 2.0 creation.
Help me here, exmo board members.

Am I right in thinking that:

(a) mentalgymnast is implying here that his deity goes from one place (planet? star system? galaxy?) to another, starting separate and sequential creations in each place? Like he (or she or it) has to turn up and press a switch or utter a word of command to set evolution from the primeval soup on its merry way?

(b) If (a), is that concept not borrowed from the narrative (acted out under circumstances to which I shall not refer), in which the decision to initiate such a creative act in one particular place is described as being taken? Because I can't think how else he can have come up with such a strange concept. The whole point about evolution is that is it entirely a chance-led process that does not require a divine act to get it started.
He could mean one of several things. I thought he was saying that, within LDS cosmology, God the father created the universe. What he created is perfect, by standards known by God (which can include flaws that are necessary). He creates the process for evolution, but also guides it so that it results in humans. The humans live and die, and the worthy ones get to be gods themselves, creating life on their own little planet. They create the conditions for life to evolve and guide it so that humans are formed. But, although they spread life throughout the universe, they do not improve on the initial creation because it is perfect.

Something like that. Evolution, in and of itself, would not be expected to produce humans on every planet that there is life. That would require "guided evolution."

Something like that.
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Re: SeN: "Hope for immortality" is a Useful Salve for Childhood "rape and strangulation."

Post by Res Ipsa »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:52 pm
To your question I might point out that theists of all sorts believe God acts through natural laws though they generally believe God is the source of those laws and determined what form and potential they have.
When you say "theists," are you going beyond Christianity? Or are there Christians who claim that Christ's resurrection was accomplished through natural law as opposed to a miracle? Asking because I have no idea.
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