If the FAIR Board actually thinks the videos provide solid refutation of the CES letter, then being Mormon has dumbed them down further than I had ever supposed. These guys KNOW better. THEY KNOW BETTER. I was on the FAIR Board for the first couple years and I got to know these guys and they are NOT stupid. They ARE however brainwashed if this is their stance. There is NO WAY Kevin Barney accepts these videos as being a solid refutation, I would stake my very life on it. The FAIR group is so defunct intellectually that ANY attention whatsoever is welcomes. This will backfire big time in time. I am so blessed to have seen through the charade and stopped being an apologist for this nonsense. I have no idea why I am so lucky, but I thank God and all Her help!
This shows that the slobbering old and boring monotone speaking farts at General Conference are so out of touch with reality and are so boring that they need entertainment instead of actual truth and knowledge to keep their youth. This is a watershed moment for Mopologetics, without question. Just when I thought it got to low time, the tide goes out another 100 or so miles. I almost feel sorry for them except it is their bed, they made it now they get to have their nightmares in it. Good job keeping the youth enlightened Brethren! May the Force be with you....
For something so important as this seems to be to Scott and the FairMormon team, why on earth are they hiding comments and upvotes/downvotes?
They’ve left voting and comments active for all of the other FairMormon videos.
Sure sends a message that they are not at all proud of this experiment.
These videos are not about giving proper and accurate information, they are about entertainment and getting the Mormon youth to believe what they are told. It is standard church doctrine to just shut up, listen, and believe what you are told. The brainwash has been complete.
However, the Reddit group Ex-Mormon in the last couple years has grown from a mere 18,000 to almost 200,000!!!! That is simply not an insignificant number. So, they need to be entertained back into the church, not informed. And the entertainment is so amateur, so obviously ridiculous, that FAIR is not willing to have comments. Is that any surprise? They get destroyed anytime they make historical or scriptural or doctrinal claims. It's time to proclaim, not discuss. Their method of proclamation is for kids however. And when those poor youth get to college or into adulthood and actually are shown what is happening, all of this will backfire. But for now, popularity is what FAIR craves, so they can continue imagining the entire world is swooning over their Gospel and their "scholarship."
Does that apply in reverse? If you can find one example of a Prophet lying do you disbelieve everything else they have said?
This is actually a reasonable instruction to a jury when evaluating a witness’s credibility — if you find that the witness was dishonest or incorrect about one thing, you may find the remainder of the witness’s testimony unreliable. But the operative word is “may.” People are wrong about one things and right about many others all the time, so each statement can also be evaluated on its own merits.
Thing is, this isn’t a trial before a jury. Juries can only evaluate the evidence presented to them as it’s been presented. They don’t have the ability to do their own research, check references and original sources, etc. Someone investigating the church’s truth claims or those issues set forth in the CES letter has the ability to play outside of the sandbox. They can look for other analyses and check sources.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the CES letter was ever designed to be the be all, end all of those issues. It seems like it was more of a compilation of various issues. Unlike the apologists and the church, it didn’t discourage readers from any further investigation, much less advise them to only research using so-called approved sources.
Cardon Ellis seems to be at least 30 years old. Kwaku is old enough to have graduated from college. What is their definition of youth?
I should ask my son, who’s 23 and no longer a youth, to watch. I can also ask him to share it with his nevermo roommates. Their response should be even more interesting.
This is only designed to those stalwart youth that already believe. It’s about reinforcing their beliefs and keeping them in. It isn’t designed for any kid who has sincere question or doubts. But I don’t think the church ever really cared that much for that group.
Last edited by toon on Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Just wanted to pop in to welcome Mixman76 to the board.
In my past two RFM podcasts, I have publicly announced the existence of this board and suggested to my listeners that if they want to rub shoulders with some of the best informed and most articulate thinkers in post-Mormonism, this board is the place to be.
Glad to see some of my listeners accepting the invitation!
As someone who, among scholars is still working on my GED, I really appreciate that. Thanks.
Does that apply in reverse? If you can find one example of a Prophet lying do you disbelieve everything else they have said?
This is actually a reasonable instruction to a jury when evaluating a witness’s credibility — if you find that the witness was dishonest or incorrect about one thing, you may find the remainder of the witness’s testimony unreliable. But the operative word is “may.” People are wrong about one things and right about many others all the time, so each statement can also be evaluated on its own merits.
Thing is, this isn’t a trial before a jury. Juries can only evaluate the evidence presented to them as it’s been presented. They don’t have the ability to do their own research, check references and original sources, etc. Someone investigating the church’s truth claims or those issues set forth in the CES letter has the ability to play outside of the sandbox. They can look for other analyses and check sources.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the CES letter was ever designed to be the be all, end all of those issues. It seems like it was more of a compilation of various issues. Unlike the apologists and the church, it didn’t discourage readers from any further investigation, much less advise them to only research using so-called approved sources.
To use your jury analogy. What the Fairmormom T. I. T. S. are doing, is asking the jury to completely discount everything one witness says if they are shown to be wrong even once, yet not discount anything another witness says even if they have been shown to be wrong multiple times.
Hello all. This is my first post here. I came here under the suggestion of RFM. Nice to meet you all. I am NOT a scholar or intellectual, just a regular dude who has come so see the church for what it is and is not. That said, my journey has been tough and I have learned a lot.
I saw the new Fair videos and was floored at how much they bully and demonized Jeremy, John and those who have left the church. I noticed that Fair was asking for feedback about these videos and I sent the following message.
To whom it may concern,
Your recent videos in collaboration with Kwaku El, Cardon Ellis and others are hitting the wrong note in today’s society. In a time when inflammatory rhetoric has galvanized hate groups and individuals to rise up and react toward their supposed enemies, these videos seek to use these same tactics to respond to those who question the truthfulness of the Church. They vilify and paint a simplistic view of Mr. Runnels and Dehlin without allowing them to be actual nuanced human beings. The “comedy” and “fun” you are trying to have at their expense is downright mean and unsavory. It is causing even further division between people who have left the church and those who are still in it. People who leave are already scared enough to tell their families without being further vilified by you and these young bullies. They speak and act with impunity, following the example set for them by selfish politicians who thrive by spreading misinformation and lies. Shouldn’t they be following the example of Jesus instead of Donald Trump?
And by the way, your website is so convoluted and difficult to navigate it makes people give up on trying to find answers there. Also, when I emailed your site to look for answers to my questions, I was talked down to, made to feel inferior and quickly labeled as an angry apostate not worth talking to. Every experience I’ve had with Fair Mormon has only led me farther away from the church not closer to coming back. These new videos are the final nails in the coffin for me.
Your tactics are not working, these videos are terrible.
Yours,
Here is the reply I just received. I thought it would be interesting for you all to read it and maybe help me come up with some good "suggestions" for them.
"Thanks for your message.
These videos are targeted at youth of the Church who do not consume any other type of content we have produced, and they are watching and being inoculated from misleading and deceitful messages from the CES Letter in large numbers. They were also created by youth using our information etc. The results of our reach to these groups is remarkable. We have evidence that youth that once accepted the CES letter as accurate are now doubting their doubts.
These are not for everyone, and we realize that. But we are very much open to specific suggestions for improvement, so we welcome your insights.
Please provide us with specific examples from any individual video with a rough time stamp of what you see could be improved, and specifically how you would see us do it differently to keep it effective. It is most helpful if you give us suggestions not only in what you don't like, but also help us with how it could be done differently to be made better.
These videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter. If youth dismiss the letter as a result, we believe that is a good result. Inasmuch Jeremy Runnels fabricated a narrative that the letter is the result of sincere questions (he mined the ex Mormon sub-reddit for his questions), we certainly think Jeremy and his opinions on the Church are worthy of dismissal by anyone, especially given his long antagonism against the Church.
We do not seek to be unkind in these videos, but to be clear that the CES letter claims are dishonest and wrong, and to do so in a light hearted way youth will consume. You will recall that Christ called people liars, hypocrites, vipers, whited sepulchurs, and sported a whip to cleanse the temple. We are simply sporting wit and humor.
But we welcome your input so that we can make these as effective as possible. Please forward specific suggestions as you are able. Examples of things you see as problems are always most helpful when accompanied with specific ideas on how they can be done in an improved way.
Regarding our website. Let me know what you are trying to find and I will help you out. Sorry it is not ad easy as we might prefer.
As for your treatment in writing in, I am personally voted and I read every single question we receive. I don't recall seeing your message or any response, but I might just be getting senile.
Of you can share your exchange with me I'd like to see it. We try and treat every single email with kindness and due respect abs i would like to correct any failure in that regard.
Best
John L."
Glad to be here and I hope to learn more from all of you.
This clearly shows the senior figures at Fairmormon are doubling down on their support for these TITS videos in the face of all the pushback.
Who is the signatory John L?
The Church and Interpreter need to immediately and publicly withdraw all support (financial or otherwise) from Fairmormon unless they (Fairmormon) remove these videos and issue an apology.
If that doesn’t happen the Church and Interpreter are complicit in this from now on.
For reference, here is Interpreter supporting and promoting the TITS videos...
There are a number of other great resources that pertain to a study of Mormon scriptures and the LDS Church. Here are several:
BYU Studies The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FairMormon)
The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship
Book of Mormon Central
Pearl of Great Price Central
I'm wondering if Kwaku might have an episode in which Dr. Louis Midgley joins the BYU Bros. Maybe even have a call in from Kiwi. Midgley could help open up a whole new group of people to demonize. Not sure the DexNat youth have ever been exposed to Dr. Midgley and this would be an excellent opportunity to help them expand their horizon in a way that would affirm their faith and way of being.
