Kevin Barney is no longer on FAIR’s board.Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:58 amIf the FAIR Board actually thinks the videos provide solid refutation of the CES letter, then being Mormon has dumbed them down further than I had ever supposed. These guys KNOW better. THEY KNOW BETTER. I was on the FAIR Board for the first couple years and I got to know these guys and they are NOT stupid. They ARE however brainwashed if this is their stance. There is NO WAY Kevin Barney accepts these videos as being a solid refutation, I would stake my very life on it. The FAIR group is so defunct intellectually that ANY attention whatsoever is welcomes. This will backfire big time in time. I am so blessed to have seen through the charade and stopped being an apologist for this nonsense. I have no idea why I am so lucky, but I thank God and all Her help!
This shows that the slobbering old and boring monotone speaking farts at General Conference are so out of touch with reality and are so boring that they need entertainment instead of actual truth and knowledge to keep their youth. This is a watershed moment for Mopologetics, without question. Just when I thought it got to low time, the tide goes out another 100 or so miles. I almost feel sorry for them except it is their bed, they made it now they get to have their nightmares in it. Good job keeping the youth enlightened Brethren! May the Force be with you....
Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
He's the guy from the Ayn Rand novel, isn't he? No, wait, that's John Galt.
There's a statue of John Galt in Greenock, Scotland, where he died - but that's a different person from the one in Atlas Shrugged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt_(novelist)
I believe John L is probably John Lynch:
https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/09 ... more-25446
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
I thought it might have been John Lynch. He’s one of the senior guys at Fairmormon. Sounds like he’s unrepentant.malkie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:07 pmHe's the guy from the Ayn Rand novel, isn't he? No, wait, that's John Galt.
There's a statue of John Galt in Greenock, Scotland, where he died - but that's a different person from the one in Atlas Shrugged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt_(novelist)
I believe John L is probably John Lynch:
https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/09 ... more-25446
The lead figure at Interpreter seems supportive of him...
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -rule.htmlHonestly, if the videos are as bad as many are saying they are, I don't expect the FairMormon leadership to delay very long in doing something. I've known John Lynch and other FairMormon leaders for quite a while; I know Scott Gordon quite well. They're good people. I trust them to do the right thing.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
I watched one of the latest videos the other night. While watching I noticed disclaimers coming on the screen now and then. I think that the FAIR folks will sooner or later tire of continuing this necessary intervention. Hopefully sooner.IHAQ wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:05 pmhttps://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -rule.htmlHonestly, if the videos are as bad as many are saying they are, I don't expect the FairMormon leadership to delay very long in doing something. I've known John Lynch and other FairMormon leaders for quite a while; I know Scott Gordon quite well. They're good people. I trust them to do the right thing.
And then chalk it up to live and learn.
Regards,
MG
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
I'm thinking that Scott & crew at FairMormon quickly realized that they are trapped in a Hell of their own making.
Can't just take down the videos -- that would admit defeat on too many levels. Would also destroy what appears a massive amount of social capital invested in their release.
Can't just take down the videos -- that would admit defeat on too many levels. Would also destroy what appears a massive amount of social capital invested in their release.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
Right, can you imagine the flip flopping that would have to happen? Just read the MDDB discussion on this. Heads would explode.Dr Moore wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:02 pmI'm thinking that Scott & crew at FairMormon quickly realized that they are trapped in a Hell of their own making.
Can't just take down the videos -- that would admit defeat on too many levels. Would also destroy what appears a massive amount of social capital invested in their release.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
Let's hope so.mentalgymnast wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:58 pmI watched one of the latest videos the other night. While watching I noticed disclaimers coming on the screen now and then. I think that the FAIR folks will sooner or later tire of continuing this necessary intervention. Hopefully sooner.
And then chalk it up to live and learn.
Regards,
MG
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
My prediction is they’ll quietly take down the most offensive ones (if they haven’t done so already), and will then tone down future content regarding the really blatant mocking and such.Dr Moore wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:02 pmI'm thinking that Scott & crew at FairMormon quickly realized that they are trapped in a Hell of their own making.
Can't just take down the videos -- that would admit defeat on too many levels. Would also destroy what appears a massive amount of social capital invested in their release.
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
Hello All!Mixman76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:10 pmHello all. This is my first post here. I came here under the suggestion of RFM. Nice to meet you all. I am NOT a scholar or intellectual, just a regular dude who has come so see the church for what it is and is not. That said, my journey has been tough and I have learned a lot.
I saw the new Fair videos and was floored at how much they bully and demonized Jeremy, John and those who have left the church. I noticed that Fair was asking for feedback about these videos and I sent the following message.
To whom it may concern,
Your recent videos in collaboration with Kwaku El, Cardon Ellis and others are hitting the wrong note in today’s society. In a time when inflammatory rhetoric has galvanized hate groups and individuals to rise up and react toward their supposed enemies, these videos seek to use these same tactics to respond to those who question the truthfulness of the Church. They vilify and paint a simplistic view of Mr. Runnels and Dehlin without allowing them to be actual nuanced human beings. The “comedy” and “fun” you are trying to have at their expense is downright mean and unsavory. It is causing even further division between people who have left the church and those who are still in it. People who leave are already scared enough to tell their families without being further vilified by you and these young bullies. They speak and act with impunity, following the example set for them by selfish politicians who thrive by spreading misinformation and lies. Shouldn’t they be following the example of Jesus instead of Donald Trump?
And by the way, your website is so convoluted and difficult to navigate it makes people give up on trying to find answers there. Also, when I emailed your site to look for answers to my questions, I was talked down to, made to feel inferior and quickly labeled as an angry apostate not worth talking to. Every experience I’ve had with Fair Mormon has only led me farther away from the church not closer to coming back. These new videos are the final nails in the coffin for me.
Your tactics are not working, these videos are terrible.
Yours,
Here is the reply I just received. I thought it would be interesting for you all to read it and maybe help me come up with some good "suggestions" for them.
"Thanks for your message.
These videos are targeted at youth of the Church who do not consume any other type of content we have produced, and they are watching and being inoculated from misleading and deceitful messages from the CES Letter in large numbers. They were also created by youth using our information etc. The results of our reach to these groups is remarkable. We have evidence that youth that once accepted the CES letter as accurate are now doubting their doubts.
These are not for everyone, and we realize that. But we are very much open to specific suggestions for improvement, so we welcome your insights.
Please provide us with specific examples from any individual video with a rough time stamp of what you see could be improved, and specifically how you would see us do it differently to keep it effective. It is most helpful if you give us suggestions not only in what you don't like, but also help us with how it could be done differently to be made better.
These videos give solid refutations of critical claims by the CES Letter. If youth dismiss the letter as a result, we believe that is a good result. Inasmuch Jeremy Runnels fabricated a narrative that the letter is the result of sincere questions (he mined the ex Mormon sub-reddit for his questions), we certainly think Jeremy and his opinions on the Church are worthy of dismissal by anyone, especially given his long antagonism against the Church.
We do not seek to be unkind in these videos, but to be clear that the CES letter claims are dishonest and wrong, and to do so in a light hearted way youth will consume. You will recall that Christ called people liars, hypocrites, vipers, whited sepulchurs, and sported a whip to cleanse the temple. We are simply sporting wit and humor.
But we welcome your input so that we can make these as effective as possible. Please forward specific suggestions as you are able. Examples of things you see as problems are always most helpful when accompanied with specific ideas on how they can be done in an improved way.
Regarding our website. Let me know what you are trying to find and I will help you out. Sorry it is not ad easy as we might prefer.
As for your treatment in writing in, I am personally voted and I read every single question we receive. I don't recall seeing your message or any response, but I might just be getting senile.
Of you can share your exchange with me I'd like to see it. We try and treat every single email with kindness and due respect abs i would like to correct any failure in that regard.
Best
John L."
Glad to be here and I hope to learn more from all of you.
First off, thanks for the invitation Mixman76. I am early into my personal exodus. I found my way into the rabbit hole around April. That said, it didn't take long for the metaphorical shelf to come crashing down.
I agree that the T.I.T.S. videos are not well made, and are very obviously made to appeal to the youth. I have several problems with not only the videos themselves, the hosts, methods and ideas. I will admit some of my problems are purely personal and limited to my own aesthetic. Those I gladly overlook.
Other issues however do need to be addressing.
1. Why would any religious organization, especially one that teaches decidedly conservative values (ie the law of chastity), endorse or support a campaign targeting youth that publicly touts the acronym TITS? It is vulgar humor at best.
If valid problems start with the mere title, imagine how many others are to come?
2. Is this the future of missionary work?
Why would I want my sons or daughters to emulate the belligerent, smug and seemingly ego driven hosts of this show? I realize these are to target youth, but for a church that promotes the family unit so heavily, imaging the very real problems cultivating attitudes like these will introduce to the parent child dynamic.
I could go on, and on, but choose not to. I have nothing to say to FAIRMormon. I tried so hard to use them as a flotation device. They are not, at least from my experience, a viable rescue resource. I think they know this is true of more mature, intellectual persons, so they are now shifting focus to the youth on whom these half-baked, high energy faulty logic driven videos might work. Sad.
For me the most interesting aspect of the reply Mixman received is the invitation to enlist Mixman in the apologist's cause. They want an outsider's input so they can more effectively hone their message. I believe in standing up for the truth. I believe in not backing away from a fight, where there is a benefit to be had in the effort. I DO NOT believe in doing someone else's job for them.
The overall tone of their reply landed in my ears like a dysfunctional lab partner. You know the one that sat there eating your snacks, playing your video games while you worked away. Then in the end, when the grades came in, they were only too happy to pat themselves on the back and take all the credit. Yeah, FAIRMormon's attempt to get Mixman to do all the real work for them is laughable.
Do your own damn homework guys?! I mean, common! Is the best source to a sustainable defence of the TRUTH and DIVINITY of LDS theology really to be found in disaffected members?
The real answer is probably: yes. Only those of us who have gone through the process of faith transition can really, truly understand it. On some level church leaders and apologists alike know this, but they are too concerned with righting the ship to listen to what we have to say. That doesn't mean they don't want to hear some of what the postmormon community could share. They desperately want to selectively understand and manipulate the psychology behind doubts to prevent members from leaving. That key of knowledge is held only by us, the disaffected.
It is not that we are a quiet, shy group resinet to share. The problem for the defenders of the faith is this: what we share the loudest is not what they want to hear. It does not help their primary goal to navigate the 'Old Ship Zion' into a safe harbor. They in no way intend to respect the very real and meaningful requests so many disaffected members make, such as:
1. don't encourage divorce in happy mixed-faith marriages
2. don't engrain youth with the shame cycle because healthy and natural sexualtiy development
3. don't give power to leaders to interrogate youth one on one in sexual matter
4. don't kick out calm, correct advocates for progress only to adopt their requests once they have been ex-ed.
Again, I could go on.
If the LDS church really is what it claims to be that would not be the case. Truth needs no sustained defense. It comes out in the end. Unfortunately, LDS theology is on the short end of this stick.
That is why I do not intend to engage with FAIRMormon. They do not get a free pass to pick my brain and improve their tactics.
This will likely be an unpopular opinion here, but there is another truth I would like to put forth: Just because FAIR is unintellectual gaslighting trash, does not mean it won't, in the long run be effective for some people, and our youth, full of vim and vigor are the perfect targets for what they are serving.
The LDS church has faced it's problems with the truth vs foundation, truth vs theology etc many times over the decades. Perhaps not on as large a scale as it is now experiencing. I think in the long run their tactics will work for many. I do not believe the church itself will dissolve into nothing. Nor do I believe it will abandon it's truth claims anytime soon. I think it will evolve, as it has always done, into something VERY different, unrecognizable even, from the church I left.
I hope the changes will be for the better. The TITS videos have me doubting that hope. They seem to be doubling down and moving toward pure orthodoxy. That move in my opinion will not be sustainable for the long term. Reform will eventually happen once the old guard in the Q15 pass the torch.
Thanks for reading,
Quirkie
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Re: Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.
I would very much like for you to return and report on their take on these. TRULY. That could shed valuable light to us......please follow through with this if it's not too much of a bother on ya.toon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:29 amCreated by youth for youth?
Cardon Ellis seems to be at least 30 years old. Kwaku is old enough to have graduated from college. What is their definition of youth?
I should ask my son, who’s 23 and no longer a youth, to watch. I can also ask him to share it with his nevermo roommates. Their response should be even more interesting.
This is only designed to those stalwart youth that already believe. It’s about reinforcing their beliefs and keeping them in. It isn’t designed for any kid who has sincere question or doubts. But I don’t think the church ever really cared that much for that group.