How does this quote square with the LGT?

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_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: How does this quote square with the LGT?

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Who Knows wrote:Moroni told Joseph Smith that the Book of Mormon told the story of the source of the inhabitants of the american continent. How do the LGT apologists explain this?

Here are some other good quotes about Moroni's visit, from Joseph Smith's 1842 letter to John Wentworth:

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known to me.
...

In this important and interesting book [i.e., the Gold Plates] the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

Source: Dean Jessee, The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 1, pp. 431-32 (Deseret Book 1989) (emphasis added).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Runtu
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Re: How does this quote square with the LGT?

Post by _Runtu »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Moroni told Joseph Smith that the Book of Mormon told the story of the source of the inhabitants of the american continent. How do the LGT apologists explain this?

Here are some other good quotes about Moroni's visit, from Joseph Smith's 1842 letter to John Wentworth:

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known to me.
...

In this important and interesting book [i.e., the Gold Plates] the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.Source: Dean Jessee, The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 1, pp. 431-32 (Deseret Book 1989) (emphasis added).


No fair, Rollo. That's just Joseph's personal opinion.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Thanks Rollo. I'd never seen either of those.

The reason I brought up the quote I did is because it is cannonized. If it's not, then the apologists simply brush it off as mere opinion. edit - see Runtu above. :)

But those are interesting, and at the very least indicate Joseph Smith's hemispheric view of the Book of Mormon.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Who Knows wrote:Thanks Rollo. I'd never seen either of those.

The reason I brought up the quote I did is because it is cannonized. If it's not, then the apologists simply brush it off as mere opinion. edit - see Runtu above. :)

But those are interesting, and at the very least indicate Joseph Smith's hemispheric view of the Book of Mormon.


The interesting thing to me is that for the LGT to work (and for the population numbers to add up), there must have been a large pre-existing civilization occupying the land of the Nephites when they arrived. But the Book of Mormon says nothing about any such people, and instead tells us that the land is held in reserve for the Nephites/Lamanites until the Columbus prophecies are fulfilled. Nibley's attempt to find mention of pre-Nephite Americans in the Book of Mormon is, to put it lightly, a major stretch.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Runtu wrote:But the Book of Mormon says nothing about any such people, and instead tells us that the land is held in reserve for the Nephites/Lamanites until the Columbus prophecies are fulfilled. Nibley's attempt to find mention of pre-Nephite Americans in the Book of Mormon is, to put it lightly, a major stretch.

Indeed. If you look closely, you'll see that the lineage of every non-Jaredite individual or people mentioned in the Book of Mormon is Israelitish.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Runtu wrote:But the Book of Mormon says nothing about any such people, and instead tells us that the land is held in reserve for the Nephites/Lamanites until the Columbus prophecies are fulfilled. Nibley's attempt to find mention of pre-Nephite Americans in the Book of Mormon is, to put it lightly, a major stretch.

Indeed. If you look closely, you'll see that the lineage of every non-Jaredite individual or people mentioned in the Book of Mormon is Israelitish.


This is one of those Occam's Razor kind of moments. Either we have to believe that the book reflects quite nicely a 19th-century frontier mythology about the Native Americans, or we have to read things into the text, dismiss the translator's statements and introduction as mere opinion, and still not find any ancient civilization that remotely resembles the Lehite civilizations. The only reason one would choose the latter is a pre-existing faith, in my opinion.
Last edited by cacheman on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_MormonMendacity
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Post by _MormonMendacity »

It's kinda' funny just how many incorrect personal opinions Joseph held about archaeology.

On June 25, 1842, Joseph recorded that Stephens and Catherwood had succeeded in collecting in the interior of America "a large amount of relics of the Nephites, or the ancient inhabitants of America treated of in the Book of Mormon," which relics had recently landed in New York (History of the Church 5: 44).


JOSEPH SMITH AND THE BEGINNING OF Book of Mormon ARCHAEOLOGY (Meridian Magazine, V. Garth Norman)
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

I don't think Joseph Smith or most of the early leaders knew where the Book of Mormon took place. This article from Kenneth Godfrey outlines some of the different interpretations, and relates the circumstances behind thre story of "Zelph".

Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon Geography
Exactly what Joseph Smith believed at different times in his life concerning Book of Mormon geography in general is also indeterminable. Only a few clues remain. For example, while the church was headquartered in Nauvoo, Joseph read a best-selling book of his day by John L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan,10 which John Bernhisel had sent to him from the East. In a letter dated 16 November 1841, the Prophet thanked Bernhisel and wrote about the book that "of all histories that had been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct" and it "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon."11 Ten months later, the Times and Seasons printed an enthusiastic review of the Stephens volume. John Taylor was the editor, although Joseph Smith had shortly before announced his own editorial responsibility for the newspaper. The unnamed writer of the review (probably Wilford Woodruff) stated that "we have just learned . . . [that] the city Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land [of Guatemala, whose ruins Stephens was reporting]."

Still, other data seem to reflect a different view and make it uncertain just what geographical conception, if any single one, prevailed among the early church leaders. Evidently Joseph Smith's views on this matter were open to further knowledge. Thus in 1834, when Zelph was found, Joseph believed that the portion of America over which they had just traveled was "the plains of the Nephite," and that their bones were "proof" of the Book of Mormon's authenticity. By 1842 he evidently believed that the events in most of Nephite history took place in Central America. While it is possible to reconcile these two views—for example by believing that the bulk of Nephite history occurred in Central America while only certain battles or excursions took place in Illinois12—it is likely that the thinking of the early church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography was subject to modification, indicating that they themselves did not see the issue as settled.13


http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table= ... passthru=T
_rcrocket

Re: How does this quote square with the LGT?

Post by _rcrocket »

Who Knows wrote:What? I'm not even sure what you're saying. And your 'quote' from the Book of Mormon intro. is not even right.

Anyways, i've heard enough apologist arguments on that Book of Mormon intro. quote, and how 'principal' doesn't really mean 'principal'.

Anyways Plutarch, which way do you swing? Hemispheric? Or LGT?


Ooops. Sorry. scratch "inhabitants" and replace with "ancestors."

Hemispheric. LGT theorists have little basis upon which to base their theories, although there are points to be made about the times and distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon. "Principal" means "principal" although I believe, based upon what I know about DNA markers from my professional work, that Indians located closer to the Bering Strait are likely to have much more diluted ancestries.

Some sources in addition to Rollo's in a paper I prepared for a study group (although most of these go to a subset of the issue -- Cumorah; but if you knock out the Cumorah problem you also knock out the LGT theory):

John E. Clark, Two Points of Book of Mormon Geography: A Review
FARMS Review of Books, vol. 8, no. 2 (1996), reviewing Paul Hedengren. The Land of Lehi. Provo, Utah: Bradford & Wilson, 1995.


To overpolemicize a nest of complex issues, the Central American thesis has the bulk of textual and scientific evidence on its side, but the New York thesis has the sanction of Church tradition on its side. (What a terrible choice for a gospel hobbyist to have to make!) Those arguing for a Central American Cumorah emphasize statements from the Book of Mormon and tend to disregard statements attributed to General Authorities on geography matters. In contrast, those arguing the New York thesis tend to do the opposite; they stress modern statements, however ambiguous, and pay lip service to the internal evidence from the Book of Mormon. Common ground eludes both camps, and the two groups disagree about what should count as primary evidence, how various classes of evidence should be weighed and evaluated, and what the logical bases for deriving sound inferences from evidence ought to be.


President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. "

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.

WHERE IS THE HILL CUMORAH?

Within recent years there has arisen among certain students of the Book of Mormon a theory to the effect that within the period covered by the Book of Mormon, the Nephites and Lamanites were confined almost entirely within the borders of the territory comprising Central America and the southern portion of Mexico—the isthmus of Tehauntepec probably being the "narrow neck" of land spoken of in the Book of Mormon rather than the isthmus of Panama.

This theory is founded upon the assumption that it was impossible for the colony of Lehi's to multiply and fill the hemisphere within the limits of 1,000 years, or from the coming of Lehi from Jerusalem to the time of the destruction of the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah. Moreover, they claim that the story in the Book of Mormon of the migrations, building of cities, and the wars and contentions, preclude the possibility of the people spreading over great distances such as we find within the borders of North and South America....

This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case. It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah is in Central America. Neither can we say that the great struggle which resulted in the destruction of the Nephites took place in Central America. If Zelph, a righteous man, was fighting under a great prophet-general in the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites; if that great prophet-general was known from the Rocky Mountains to 'the Hill Cumorah or eastern sea,' then some of those battles, and evidently the final battles did take place within the borders of what is now the United States....

As I stood upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah, in the midst of a vast multitude, only a few of whom belonged to the Church, I tried to picture the scenes of former days. Here were assembled vast armies filled with bitterness and bent on destruction....

. . . . Here it was that Moroni, commanded by the Lord, hid up the sacred records of his people. Here it was. 1,400 years later, that he, then a resurrected being, came to Joseph Smith and committed these same records to the young man's care. At the time of the Prophet's first visit to the hill, it was covered with trees; today (1923) it is stripped and bare, save for the grass which grows abundantly.

James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p.231

On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York. The precise spot where the plates lay was shown to Joseph in vision; and he had no difficulty in finding it on the day following the visitation referred to. Joseph Smith's statement of Moroni's declaration concerning the plates is as follows: "He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from which they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants; Also, that there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim-deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted 'seers' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

George Reynolds, A Dictionary of the Book of Mormon

CUMORAH, HILL One of the most noted places in ancient American history was the land in which was situated the hill known to the Jaredites as Ramah, and to the Nephites as Cumorah. In its vicinity two great races were exterminated; for it was there that the last battles were fought in the history of both people. There also the sacred records of the Nephites found their final resting place. When iniquity began to increase in their midst, Ammaron hid the holy things in the hill Shim (A. D. 321). About fifty-five years after (say in A. D. 376) Mormon, seeing that his people were fast melting away before the Lamanites, and fearing that the latter would get possession of the records and destroy them, removed all that had been placed in his care by Ammaron, and afterwards hid up in the hill Cumorah all that had been entrusted to him by the lands of the Lord, save the few plates which he gave to his son Moroni. Moroni after-wards concealed the treasures committed to his keeping in the same hill, where they remained until they were, by Heaven's permission, exhumed and translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. This hill is situated about three or four miles from Palmyra, in the State of New York.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.174

See Book of Mormon, GOLD PLATES. Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. (Morm. 6; Ether 15.) Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 232-241.)

The Contributor, Volume 1

This angel Moroni lived in the flesh in the ending of the fourth century and for some twenty years of the fifth century. He was the son of General Mormon, who made the abridgement of the plates of Nephi, and called it the "Book of Mormon." Moroni was present at the great battle of Cumorah, in the State of New York, and was general over ten thousand troops. He witnessed the entire destruction of the people called in the Book of Mormon "Nephites." Just previous to this great and last battle, General Mormon, who held all the sacred writings the Liahonah, the Urim and Thummim, or interpreters, as they were called, and the plates of the Book of Mormon, deposited all these things, excepting the plates, in the hill Ramah, or, as the Nephites called it, Cumorah. Moroni lived thirty-five years after this great battle, which took place in the year of the Christian era 385.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

You've just gone way up in my estimation, Robert. I haven't met too many people on the apologetics boards who aren't afraid to publicly stand with the consistent teachings of church leaders. If you're going to be a Mormon, be a real one. Good for you.
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