This could be a really inane question, I'm still asking it

[_harmony]

I think you're right. What I don't understand, though, is this. Why should a believer feel betrayed by a doubter/exiter? I can understand how this can happen in a family situation, but this animosity which occurs between a believer and a total stranger who is a doubter/exiter makes no sense to me. I mean, after all, aren't we taught to be kind to others? To lead by example? This was just something I never understood.

I saw this kind of behavior happen in "real life" when we lived in Utah. Many of the members there made my stomach turn because they were so venomous to non-members....people of other faiths, in particular. What happened to missionary work? What happened to compassion?

When I started posting on the FAIRboards, it was like living in "Happy Valley" all over again. I still don't understand the amount of hate exhibited on the current MAD board.

This type of attitude just seems so incongruous to the teachings of Christ.

There's several factors at work here.

1. Betrayal. The church demands that we sacrifice everything for the building up of Zion, so when someone leaves for doctrinal reasons, we feel betrayed, as if our sacrifice has been for nothing.

2. Pain. When someone leaves the church for doctrinal reasons (as opposed to personal "sin" reasons), many of us feel like they've slapped us all, especially if they are angry when they leave.

3. Fear. When someone leaves the church, especially one we view as a strong member or someone with a strong testimony, many of us secretly fear they may be right.

4. Disdain. Many members buy into the "one true church", "peculiar people" to such an extent that anyone who leaves is automatically of lesser value as a human being. They're no longer peculiar, like we are (peculiar being the epitome of human characteristics).

5. Lack of emphasis on kindness and loving one's neighbor. The lack of emphasis on kindness and loving one's neighbor in the church, from the top down, manifests itself in the way we treat everyone who is not a member of our tribe. Until the TRI emphasizes the 2 great commandments, we will continue to miss the whole point of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[_Seven]

Great article Dr. Shades. I have it saved in my favorites. Here are a few parts that I found useful for this topic:


from "The Believer and the Apostate" http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/Bible/apostasy.shtml

Thus, the apostate cannot exist in the worldview of the believer. There is no place in their psychological makeup for someone who was fully appraised of all the dogma of the tradition, who accepted all its pronouncements implicitly, and yet who later rejected the system. The very existence of such a person poses a threat to the careful mental balancing act in which act believers are engaged..........

.........Thus, the believer often reaches a state of compromise which effectively creates separate mental compartments for faith and the "real world". This strategy, which is quite similar to George Orwell’s "doublethink", allows the believer to accept at face value any pronouncement made within the confines of his own faith, while subjecting any principle that originates outside of his system to rational examination.

This dichotomy is nowhere more evident than in the field of apologetics. In order to effectively produce a defense of the faith, the apologist must of necessity examine competing systems of belief. Generally, an apologist is easily able to spot the logical flaws and special pleading that exist in rival faiths, but seems completely unable to apply the same analysis to his own tenets. Thus, an apologist will sometimes refute the arguments of a religious opponent, and then use the very same arguments to support their own position.

Keep in mind that a doubter or member struggling with church teachings, is the same as the apostate to a TBM-
a threat to their mental balancing act . This is what I find in common with Internet TBMs/apologists and Chapel Mormons.

Brilliant piece. Thanks for sharing! :)

[_Mephitus]

Not only do i think it regular within the TBM community. I know the experience first hand.

Most of my extended family and most of my close family, is convinved of all the things that are very steriotypical of apostates. As such an example, the week before i turned 19, i was given the question, "so, are you going on a mission?" my response was not something that could be considered a threat, "I've decided that if if went now, it would only be because you want me to, and not because i was comfortable with my faith enough to." At the time, i was quietly questioning, but not out. With that response came their answer, "then you have 1 week to get out of my house." My birthday was celebrated only as a technicality with nothing but a hastily made birthday cake, for the following day i was on the street. Im not talking figurativly. I mean i was literaly homless on the streets of payson utah. I didn't even own a car at the time. And having moved to utah only 4-5 months prior, no friends i could call for help and all the family in the area was step. (so they where allied with my mothers new husband) All because i had doubts. "Suffer not the thinker to speak"

Im now considered the family drunk, gay, drug addict, porn addict, outcast (lately less so, unsure why atm), ect. It seemed that rather than try to understand my doubts and possibly address them, it would be much more efficient (and easier for that matter) to just rid themselves of the "dissenter in the ranks".

[_Polygamy Porter]

Thanks to the stories on RfM, I was fully aware of the gallons of sheep sh!t that would be spewed upon me and my posterity, well before it happened.

Further, it confirmed what had been drilled into me as a member, and how to view and thereby treat the "apostates".

Hey, we can't blame them, they are still under the mind control of the cult.

[_why me]

Hello All,

Well, it's a good thing that I'm not afraid to make a total fool of myself in public so please allow this outsider to the LDS Church to ask what could be a totally off base, out of left field, inane question....

Do you all think there is any sort of correlation between the way that the MAD board treats ex and never-Mo's who are critics and the way that some (not all) TBM's treat their doubting/exiting family members and friends?

Jersey Girl

I see no correlation at all. The MAD board is an apologetic board made up of different people who may or may not be an apologist. Also, the lds people on that board have seen and heard it all. Nothing on the internet can shake them from the faith. However, the treatment of Exers and non-exmormon critics can be traced to lds postersbeing on the board for a length of time. Also, the critics can come and begin to show disrespect at first. I have seen critics who show respect survive quite well.

Also, your generalization is just that, a generalization. There are families who act differently from what you said. Also, the lds church does not encourage such behavior as shunning. The opposite is true....it stresses love.

Since we humans are not perfect, mistakes will be made by the lds and likewise, I should mention family members who do exclude because a family member has joined the lds church. Such imperfections are just that imperfections and should be understood as such.

The MAD people have been defending the lds church for a while now. They should not be blamed for losing it sometimes. It is not an easy job to be at MAD.

[_Yoda]

The MAD people have been defending the lds church for a while now. They should not be blamed for losing it sometimes. It is not an easy job to be at MAD.

So we should adopt the philosophy of "poor babies"?

That's complete BS!

Sorry, Why Me, but it is.

The MAD board is VOLUNTEER! It should be for entertainment, or enlightenment, like this board is. Damn...it's not even a friggin' calling! The MAD'ites are there because they WANT to be there. If it's too "hard on them" to be there, then they need to do something else. If they are putting themselves up on a pedastal, thinking they are doing some great service for the Church, they need to think again. It's a MESSAGE BOARD. There are LOTS of them on the Internet.

If they really want to serve the Church, they need to be spending less time on the Internet, and more time with their callings and their families.

Give me a break.

[_Yoda]

Also, your generalization is just that, a generalization. There are families who act differently from what you said. Also, the lds church does not encourage such behavior as shunning. The opposite is true....it stresses love.

I agree. It's not wise to generalize in any group because you will always find exceptions to the rule. However, I do think it's fair to notice trends. I'm in no way saying that ALL Mormon families act in this fashion, but I have OBVSERVED a large number who do. Others here have as well.

I'm also not arguing that the gospel doesn't emphasize love. It does. And yes, the gospel also discourages shunning. However, can that be an adequate observation of much , not all, of the LDS culture, particularly in highly populated LDS communities, such as Utah? Hmmm...maybe that's a topic for another thread.

[_Jersey Girl]

why me,

With regards to your generalization comment, I'd just like to point out to you and make it clear that I stated "some (not all)" TBM's. I am not generalizing about TBM's as a group but a selected few that I see on the boards and circumstances in real life, so let's don't run that part up a flagpole and inflate it.

Jersey Girl

[_harmony]

Im now considered the family drunk, gay, drug addict, porn addict, outcast (lately less so, unsure why atm), ect. It seemed that rather than try to understand my doubts and possibly address them, it would be much more efficient (and easier for that matter) to just rid themselves of the "dissenter in the ranks".

Why is it that the normal "finding oneself" that virtually every teenager goes through in the transition from childhood to adulthood results in this sort of behavior, in some LDS homes and not others? I have 2 sons who did not serve missions. They are treated no differently from their brothers who did serve. My DH is your average totally TBM man. He was a bit disappointed when his 2 sons made that choice, but he never would have dreamed of booting them out of our home. NEVER. (Not that I would have ever allowed it, but he would never suggest such a thing).

I just do not understand this kind of parenting. I do not understand this kind of behavior on the part of members of the Lord's one true church. What the hell are they thinking???? This kind of behavior is totally unacceptable from anyone who claims to be a disciple of Christ. I just do not understand it.

[_cacheman]

I have seen critics who show respect survive quite well.

Often I feel that mutual respect is not what many are after. I've had experiences where I was thanked for being respectful towards LDS beliefs, while in the same paragraph my beliefs were condemned. I've found that often there is a double standard where believers demand respect but at best, only reciprocate with sad tolerance.

cacheman