Who Knows wrote:I may not be reading the list close enough, but i don't see kinderhook plates on there. or any problems related to the Book of Mormon (king jamesisms, anachronisms). adam god. blood atonement. prophets speaking as men vs. as prophets. 'purchasing' your way into heaven (tithing requirement).
Updated list. Book of Mormon was #1 (it of course has hundreds by itself). Tithing was #9 I think.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
Who Knows wrote:I may not be reading the list close enough, but i don't see kinderhook plates on there. or any problems related to the Book of Mormon (king jamesisms, anachronisms). adam god. blood atonement. prophets speaking as men vs. as prophets. 'purchasing' your way into heaven (tithing requirement).
Another thing that strikes me is just the sheer volume of problems with the church. It's not that there's just one or two areas of disputed claims (despite charity's wishful thinking). Literally every claim the church makes about itself is arguable. I think apologists rightly focus on knocking down each problem one at a time (insofar as you can knock any of it down) rather than facing the daunting avalanche of problematic stuff.
Keeping mentally handicapped people from witnessing temple weddings
Lay leadership inappropriately involved in family matters
Focusing on the dead rather than the living (believing the work will all be done for everyone in the millennium)
Promising to sacrifice everything to the building up of the church over helping and serving others
Stating opinion as fact
Not apologizing for mistakes
No correcting misleading teachings (The prophet meets with Jesus in the Holy of Holies) etc. (I think this is different than not disclosing history)
The hurt that comes to families due to teachings of who is sealed to whom in the CKHL when there is divorce etc.
The hurt that comes to families when a family member doesn't believe or leaves the church
The teaching that those who let go of belief are followers of Satan, horrific sinners, or have been offended
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Runtu wrote:Another thing that strikes me is just the sheer volume of problems with the church. It's not that there's just one or two areas of disputed claims (despite charity's wishful thinking). Literally every claim the church makes about itself is arguable. I think apologists rightly focus on knocking down each problem one at a time (insofar as you can knock any of it down) rather than facing the daunting avalanche of problematic stuff.
I'm not sure 'knocking them down' is the right wording. I think it's more like 'rationalizing away'. ie., 'we don't know all the answers right now', 'god requires faith', 'this is a test', 'prophets are fallible', etc.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:I'm not sure 'knocking them down' is the right wording. I think it's more like 'rationalizing away'. ie., 'we don't know all the answers right now', 'god requires faith', 'this is a test', 'prophets are fallible', etc.
Of course. That's why I qualified the statement. To me, apologetics is the art of making excuses. And you seem to have heard the same ones I have, for some odd reason.
Runtu wrote:To me, apologetics is the art of making excuses. And you seem to have heard the same ones I have, for some odd reason.
And then, what really grates on my nerves, is when the TBM says - 'oh, that's been dealt with'. When in fact, then only thing that has happened is a 'plausible' alternative has been given.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Runtu wrote:To me, apologetics is the art of making excuses. And you seem to have heard the same ones I have, for some odd reason.
And then, what really grates on my nerves, is when the TBM says - 'oh, that's been dealt with'. When in fact, then only thing that has happened is a 'plausible' alternative has been given.
That the same arguments come up usually means that they haven't been dealt with adequately. This is a function of the "openmindedness" charity was talking about, that arguments are accepted insofar that they support the predetermined conclusion; but they're openminded about new arguments, as long as they also support the "truth."