Absolutely no room for doubt!

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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:Contrary to charity's wishful thinking, critics do not generally approach LDS issues with an "absolutely no room for doubt that the Church isn't true" perspective. They operate on what the evidnece supports, but are usually willing to hear new evidence if it can be presented. Most critics I know are willing to be dissuaded from their assumptions if a case can be made. But the problem is that the apologetic position is often an intellectually bankrupt endeavor, and compelling arguments from them are almost non-existent. It usually falls back on the hopes that God will come and strike the critic down with a spiritual confirmation.


Actually, I, like many of you, started with a conviction that Mormonism was true. I was born into the faith. I gained a strong spiritual witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon. I served faithfully for two years as a missionary. In that time my testimony grew. I returned from my mission, attended BYU, received two degrees from them. I married in the temple, and until a year ago was pretty active in my ward, even serving in leadership positions.

I did not imagine, when I first participated in online apologetics, or when I acquired a higher education in ancient studies, that the end result would be losing my faith. I actually went to BYU with the goal of studying with Hugh Nibley. I did get to take some classes with him, and he played no small role in my decision to specialize in a study of the ancient world. At first I was drawn in by apologetic answers. I was angered when I heard other LDS scholars criticize Nibley.

Then, as I acquired knowledge in my field, I came to see the problems with Nibley's work, and then the problems with the work of other apologists. I came to understand the standards of evidence which people who study antiquity generally apply in order to reach reliable conclusions. I continued to watch apologetics unfold, and I have to say that what I saw was increasingly disconcerting.

In other words, I did not set out with the preconceived idea that Mormonism is not what it claims to be. I once had a deep conviction that it was precisely what it claims to be. Over time, I saw what I took to be overwhelming evidence against this, particularly when it comes to Mormon viewpoints about the past. I see no way in which the historicity of the Book of Mormon, JST, Abraham, etc., can be defended credibly, although I would not say that it is eternally, utterly impossible. The same goes with the Mormon concept of early Christianity, an apostacy, etc. I find it all very implausible. I am not, however, closed off to good evidence and arguments that would challenge my views.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_evolving
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Post by _evolving »

I am open to the thought of the Church being what it claims to be - It would be a huge surprise, but I would be happy to humble myself and bow to the curelom pictograph next to the scratched phrase -- Nephi was here --!!!

I spent most of my adult life poking large holes in other religions & belief systems, while safely tucked away in my Mormon security blanket -- once the internal shelf of unsolved Mormon mysteries and convoluted historical soup came tumbling down, belief in anything & everything followed soon there after. not a very pleasant time of my life, for me or my family - I wholly accept the possibility that one day my paradigm will shift again. I would be disappointed if it did not happen. I look forward to all events that cause me to grow and expand as a person. It is an amazing feeling to discover. I am exploring things I would have never studied while tucked safely away in the hamster wheel of Mormonism..
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Sorry to leave you for so long whistling in the dark. The following are just a few posts from the paradigm thread.

Runtu: For me, Mormonism makes complete sense as a hoax in a way it never did as a true restoration of the gospel.

Sethbag: What you have, BCSpace, is self-delusion. Your strength of belief is no different than that of Osama bin Laden, or the Pope, or Jerry Falwell, or the Jehovah's Witnesses down the street at the Kingdom Hall. Only your chosen brand of "Truth" is different.

Dartagnan: It isn’t a problem in psychology at all since it doesn’t exist. (Referring to spiritual witnesses.)


I don't see much openess to new information in those posts.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

charity wrote:Sorry to leave you for so long whistling in the dark. The following are just a few posts from the paradigm thread.

Runtu: For me, Mormonism makes complete sense as a hoax in a way it never did as a true restoration of the gospel.

Sethbag: What you have, BCSpace, is self-delusion. Your strength of belief is no different than that of Osama bin Laden, or the Pope, or Jerry Falwell, or the Jehovah's Witnesses down the street at the Kingdom Hall. Only your chosen brand of "Truth" is different.

Dartagnan: It isn’t a problem in psychology at all since It doesn’t exist. (Referring to spiritual witnesses.)


I don't see much openess to new information in those posts.


There's plenty of openness. What you don't see is new information coming from the TBMs. What new information have you got for me that convinces me that JOseph Smith was not a lying, scheming, manipulative sexual predator, as evidenced by his public lying about polygamy, his private lying and deception about it to his wife, and his obvious and blatent maninpulation and coercion of young women and girls to "marry" him in farcical secret ceremonies, have sex with him, but then be pretty much just left to fend for themselves? Have you got anything to offer me here? Or is it all just a "change of perspective" that you offer me? As in, if I can only see it with an eye of faith, these actions of his will seem more Godly and less Assholely?

Have you got the location of Zarahemla yet? Have you got the "real" Cumorah yet? Have you found the legendary missing scroll? Have you found evidence that a global worldwide flood really did happen? Have you got evidence that homo sapiens really did begin on this planet about 6000ish years ago in Missouri?

Seriously, Charity, what the heck is it that you want? What is it that we should be open to other than the pathetic apologetic attempts to defend the indefensible?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Sethbag wrote:Seriously, Charity, what the heck is it that you want? What is it that we should be open to other than the pathetic apologetic attempts to defend the indefensible?


Only a level playing field. Same rules for faithful LDS as for critics.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

charity wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Seriously, Charity, what the heck is it that you want? What is it that we should be open to other than the pathetic apologetic attempts to defend the indefensible?


Only a level playing field. Same rules for faithful LDS as for critics.

Fine by me. We'll bring some evidence, and you bring some too.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_The Dude
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Re: Absolutely no room for doubt!

Post by _The Dude »

charity wrote:On the paradigm topic, posters are making the statement "absolutely no room for doubt!" By both sides.

My question is this: How is the "absolutely no room for doubt" that the Church is NOT true seen by a critic as a completely permissable attitude, when "absolutely no room for doubt" that the Church IS true is labeled close minded, naïve, wrong, blind, brainwashed, etc.?

Why is "absolutely no room for doubt" a reasonable attitude one way, but not the other?


I'll tell you why and it's very simple. There are so many millions of ways the Church can be false, but only one way it can be true.

Hence it is reasonable for critics to round off the 1/5,000,000 chance that Mormonism is true - that is, round it down to a zero -- and state "absolutely no room for doubt" that Mormonism is not what it claims to be.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

charity wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Seriously, Charity, what the heck is it that you want? What is it that we should be open to other than the pathetic apologetic attempts to defend the indefensible?


Only a level playing field. Same rules for faithful LDS as for critics.
Image

How is that possible?

You believe in magic.

We believe in facts.

We know how the magician performs his tricks.

You honestly believe his magic trick are real, cuz you saw them.


Hey, why not 'sssplain to us how you would level this so called playing field?
_Zoidberg
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Post by _Zoidberg »

I, for one, have plenty of room for doubting that anything at all exists, especially everything outside of myself. I have less room for doubting my own existence, but I admit I could be biased there.

So is there room for doubt concerning the LDS church? Of course; I mostly reject it based on feelings I suspect are identical to the "spiritual witness" charity is talking about concerning the nature of God, the plan of salvation, exaltation, etc. Postmodernism is also fine by me.

But to be consistent and straightforward, we need to compare notes on accepted definitions and assumptions that we share. If it's okay to say Santa Claus does not exist, it must also be okay to say the Church is not true, even though technically we should all be Santa agnostics. Maybe no one is getting presents directly from him because everyone has been naughty. Or when parents buy presents for their kids and put them under the tree, Santa is working through them unbeknownst to them.

I think the difference between positive and negative claims and the possibility the Church might be true is generally understood, but people just don't feel like getting all technical about it. On the other hand, when you say "I know the Church is true", it sounds just like "I know that 2 plus 2 is 4". 2 plus 2 may not always be 4, but the consensus is so universal that most people can relate to this knowledge; but your "knowledge" of the Church being true is something else entirely, which is not being made clear. So saying "I know the Church is true" is either inaccurate or deceptive. Saying "I know the Church is not true" is just technically inaccurate; I doubt many people are banking on the rest of the population being ignorant of the fact that it's impossible to prove a negative. I suppose some people don't know that, which is unforunate.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_guy sajer
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Re: Absolutely no room for doubt!

Post by _guy sajer »

charity wrote:On the paradigm topic, posters are making the statement "absolutely no room for doubt!" By both sides.

My question is this: How is the "absolutely no room for doubt" that the Church is NOT true seen by a critic as a completely permissable attitude, when "absolutely no room for doubt" that the Church IS true is labeled close minded, naïve, wrong, blind, brainwashed, etc.?

Why is "absolutely no room for doubt" a reasonable attitude one way, but not the other?


It's called "evidence." Critics have an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that Mormonism is NOT true.

Believers have their "spiritual witness" telling them it is true. Despite what evidence (or what passes for evidence in the loose way believers define the term) believers can marshall, their belief almost inevitably falls back on unverifiable subjective experiences/feelings.

That's the difference.

Is Mormonism true, perhaps, but in terms of probability, I give it no more than .0001 chance.

I do not see the need to re-evaluate my position. The evidence is in, and it's overwhelming.

You bring objectively verifiable evidence to the table (and with regards Book of Mormon or PofGP evidence that that objective "experts"--non-Mormon ones--consider credible), then we can talk about re-evaluating my position.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
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