Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

truth dancer wrote:Think of all the families who are paying tithing rather than taking care of their children, getting a retirement fund going, or even paying their bills. Families who are unable to get an education, insurance, or even decent food because they are paying their tithing.

I hear your pain but seriously Asbestosman, as I said, you are one of the more fortunate!


Please don't take the following personally. I am in a sense resonding to the EQ guilt-trip, not to your reply.

My parents paid for my mission. They did not pay for my education--I did (with scholarship help). I'm all for scholarshipsto help people get an education including some needs based grants, but I don't have much sympathy for scholastic slackers. Struggling is different though I guess. It's tough, but in general I would prefer for students to work and pay their own way as much as possible, perhaps in a decent community college if notheing else.

As for the struggle for paying bills, I can sympathize. In fact I generally agree with paying fast offerings for that reason. I know that one little misfortune can cause great expenses in medical bills, and I don't think it's anything more than bad luck most of the time, so I do feel bad for those people. I do not feel so bad for people who took no thought for future savings or for any insurance and now expect me to pay their bills. Thought about it but couldn't afford it? It's a toughie of course, but I look at others and think that many could save quite a bit if they would bus, carpool, or use other transportation for commuting as I do. They could probably also save more by changing vacation plans. Actually, I plan to make a change myself. I plan to make this year my last yearly flight home for the hollidays. It's too expensive. when I consider everything else I need now.

I actually do feel fortunate most of the time. It's just that I get frustrated when I am given conflicting goals: 1) provide well for my family (sorry, but my wife won't let us live in a slum, and insists on a house) including being self-sufficient (which includes planning for retirement) and 2) sacrificing money for the poor.

Sorry, but 1 already pushes me to the limit. I'd love to sell the house and be more generous, but it ain't gonna happen because I do not own family finances. I refuse to dig into retirement as I believe that is irresponsible for someone like me to do. Like I said, it's not like I take fancy trips. I so wish to go back to Holland on vacation, but it ain't happenin' what with everything else I need to spend money for.

Indeed, I feel less happy being given some guilt-trip about how I need to finance missionaries when the church has extra money to spend on a mall. Now I grant that said mall may be an investment instead of a money sink. Still, one has to wonder why that sort of money couldn't be used to help with the missionary fund, nor indeed why people are going on missions without FIRST lining up a way for it to be paid. Why should I be responsible for their irresponsibility? I mean it was about MY ward's missionaries. If, as the guilt-tripper said, my ward isn't poor, then what the heck were those elders thinking by going out without making financial arrangements beforehand? Hard times I can understand, but then please make arrangements.

Note, I'm not blaming the church for this. I just feel frustrated that I have conflicting obligations and I despise guilt-trips.
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_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Jason Bourne wrote:


Sorry but, you are one of the more blessed if you can purchase a house, pay tithing and have a savings account.

You should be sacrificing big time!

Think of all the families who are paying tithing rather than taking care of their children, getting a retirement fund going, or even paying their bills. Families who are unable to get an education, insurance, or even decent food because they are paying their tithing.

I hear your pain but seriously Asbestosman, as I said, you are one of the more fortunate!


Oh come on. Most active LDS I know are able to contribute tithes and offerings and afford a home. And no my ward is not affluent


I don't think so Jason. My understanding is that only a minority of LDS members (including active ones) pay a full tithe. The Church is heavily dependent on North American contributions to subsidize the international Church (and not only because the donations are larger, but also due to low incidence of tithe paying outside of N. America).
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Jason Bourne wrote:
harmony wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:Oh come on. Most active LDS I know are able to contribute tithes and offerings and afford a home. And no my ward is not affluent


I thought she was referring to those living outside the US. I could be wrong, though.


If so she was not clear about it


Hi Jason,

Sorry I was not more specific.

Of course I was referring to the many members throughout the world. There are many members living in near squalor but paying tithing. Even the more wealthy in places like Sweden, members do not own homes but pay tithing. And you know that many members pay tithing and are in dept upto their ears.

How many leaders would suggest one begins a retirement fund rather than pay tithing? I mean lets be real here! (smile)

The fact that a couple can pay tithing, own a home, AND have a savings account is not the norm. It is the wealthy exception.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Asbestosman,

Well, I'm right with you sure on this..

I'm just saying, from the LDS perspective, the teachings (in my experience) have always been to put tithes FIRST, then work with whatever is left which for many people is not much. If it means no house, fine. If it means no savings, no education, no insurance, no whatever. Fine.

Trust in the Lord. Have Faith. Obey the principle.

I do not care for the guilt thing either just to be clear.

I'm just saying that members are expected to support the missionaries so the gospel will be spread throughout the world. Members are now asked to house the missionaries as well. My observation is that all members should be engaged in the world and supporting them is just one of the ways to do so.

Why not just skip a hot cocoa once in a while and donate 10 dollars or so each month to the missionary fund? I'm guessings no one is asking you to give up your savings to support several missionaries each month... maybe just contribute?

Just trying to help! :)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

truth dancer wrote:Why not just skip a hot cocoa once in a while and donate 10 dollars or so each month to the missionary fund? I'm guessings no one is asking you to give up your savings to support several missionaries each month... maybe just contribute?

Ha, funny you should mention $10 a month. During the EQ guilt-trip they put a bunch of numbers on the board. They estimated 2 million active members, 50,000 fulltime missionariies at $400 a month giving a cost of $20million/month. I then brought up that dividing 20million by 2 is $10 a month. That didn't seem to be well received.

But the thing is, I actually can afford $10 a month. If that's all they were asking for, I wouldn't feel so bad. I was thinking they're asking for $100 / month. Sorry, but that's just a bit too much for me. If they want more money, they'll have to talk to my wife, not me. She's the one who wanted a house. She's also the one who wants to be a stay-at-home mom. If the church is in need of cash, then they should tell her to stay working as an engineer. Of course she would hate that. She despises her current job.
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_SatanWasSetUp
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Re: Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

asbestosman wrote:I just got put on a major guilt-trip in Elder's Quorum today


Isn't this the point of going to church, the guilt trips? You go to church to either receive guilt trips or dish them out, depending on your calling. Why else does anyone go to church?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

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_asbestosman
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Re: Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

Post by _asbestosman »

SatanWasSetUp wrote:Isn't this the point of going to church, the guilt trips? You go to church to either receive guilt trips or dish them out, depending on your calling. Why else does anyone go to church?

I would hope guilt-trips aren't the point. I remember that as I missionary I was specifically told not to give the members guilt-trips. That's another reason I get PO'd when I recieve them at church. I mean it's not fair, ya know.
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_Who Knows
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Re: Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

Post by _Who Knows »

asbestosman wrote:I just got put on a major guilt-trip in Elder's Quorum today about missionary funds. I was told that tithing funds only cover building expenses, not missionary work.


That's probably true. But that's not to say that tithing funds couldn't be used to fund missionary work. But then, that takes away funds from something else (that's obviously more important). In other words, instead of the church diverting tithing funds from something else, why not ask the members to give more $$. Giving 10+ percent just doesn't cut it.

And to top it all off, they want to do this without giving you the least bit of financial disclosure.

I seriously wonder sometimes how i fell for it for so long...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_asbestosman
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Re: Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

Post by _asbestosman »

Who Knows wrote:And to top it all off, they want to do this without giving you the least bit of financial disclosure.

Frankly that is a reason I'm feeling a bit upset. I'm fine with the church not disclosing what it does with tithing, but if it does that, I do NOT want them telling me I owe MORE. They need to prove it. I mean, I thought tithing was supposed to cover the church's expenses. And I was told that tithing wasn't there because God needs the money, it was there to bless us. If the church really wants me to donate more, then the church must be willing to give me the same deal it gives general authorities. I want medical and retirement for me and my family. I also need enough for transportation, a decent GA-like place to live with decent GA-like clothing, and healthy, GA-like food. If that is all guraanteed, I will pay 100% net after-tax donations and tithes and I won't care at all what the church does with it.

But if the church isn't gonna go for that deal with me, then I'm sorry, but I'm gonna save for retirement (unless they really want to support me on fast offerings later on), and I'm gonna live where my wife is happy. If they want a change, they will have to guilt-trip her about living in a house or not working. Guilt-tripping me is pointless.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Criticizing the church - It's a slippery slope to apostasy. Enjoy the ride. :)
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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