Brainwashing or Personal Responsibility?

[_jskains]

ha ha, ha ha ha ha. You try so hard in your own way young lad.

No, that wouldn't be brainwashing.

But that is the point. Mormonism is a take it or leave it situation. You do NOT have to go to Church. You do NOT have to marry in the Church. There is no one in Mormonism putting a gun to your head. If you think Mormonism is not of God, then none of the ideas in Mormonism mean anything to you, so you can just walk away.
JMS

One should not discount the power that the following have on (1) our perceived choice set and (2) the decisions we actually make: parental, familial; peer, and social expectations; norms of thought and behavior; social ties and obligations; access to information; perceptions about our freedom to access and process information (e.g., are we afraid to acquire or consider information because we might be "sinning"); self esteeem; perceived power or powerlessness, etc.

Once again Josh your argument is based on what I think (and what social researchers demonstrate) is a highly flawed assumption--that of unfettered free will and non-constrained choice sets. This doesn't mean that the Mormon Church brainwashes (I don't think it does), but it does mean, I think, that your argument, as it is, is flawed.

By the way, I think the consensus on the board is that the Mormon Church doesn't brainwash (with a few holdouts--Infymus and Gadianton). Why do you keep beating this horse? Would it be more productive to discuss the nature of indoctrination and what constitutes acceptable boundaries, or something like that?

And by the way, NONE of this is personal. I am reacting only to your argument. I am glad you've chosen to stick around.

I am not the one beating this horse. One of the most recent posts was right back to brainwashing.

JMS

[_karl61]

Brainwashing is wrong. Having a weak or immature mind is not wrong - it could be a foundation for later problems but it is not wrong.

[_Gadianton]

What I find amusing is your lack of critical thinking that I find amusing.

Is what you find amusing my lack of critical thinking that you find amusing?

Other than in a quick example, where do you see me actively "campaigning" against Scientology?

You used to complain about Scientology on ZLMB. I will admit though in this case you're exhibiting more of a knee-jerk reaction, "look! They are worse that we are" than deeply bigoted. this, unlike your attack on homosexuality which is entirely bigoted and nothing more.

As for my comments on homosexuality, again, you seem unable to read them. Of course in the end I think your either ignorant or stupid, your choice.

I've read them, and they are standard bigotry. Nothing more. You don't offer a shred of insight. One of the clear signs of bigotry is the unwillingness to educate yourself on a controversial issue. Basically, you think up something you don't like, homosexuality for instance, and then without any research on the subject or the necessary context for discussing it rattle off every idle thought that comes to your mind. Uneducated white southerners have been known to do the same when discussing the merits or failings of black folk. It's not always just pure mean-spiritedness. Some of them may in fact seriously contemplate the matter within their own minds. Yet they are bigots. Standard ones.

Critical thinking is an art. One you apparently lost.

Josh, those two sentences don't actually make any sense when put together. There was an art, and I apparently had it then lost it? What's that suppose to mean?

[_charity]

"Mind control" might be easier to sustain as a claim against the Church if it wasn't for our immersion into the larger culture. We don't have LDS schools where students never come across any other viewpoint or idea. PUblic schools are pretty good at presenting opposite points of view. And what teenage kid doesn't go through the time when nothing their parents think, do or believe is right?

[_Mister Scratch]

"Mind control" might be easier to sustain as a claim against the Church if it wasn't for our immersion into the larger culture. We don't have LDS schools where students never come across any other viewpoint or idea.

Wha...? Then how would you characterize the BYU campuses? Or (good heavens...) the MTC? The whole mission experience itself is fraught with this kind of stuff. Sure, missionaries are out in the "larger culture" (though I think that's a misnomer, since many missionaries are forbidden from partaking of "culture" such as books, TV shows, newspapers, and so forth), but there are so many "safe guards" in place that I think it's more accurate to characterize them as being "cordoned off."

PUblic schools are pretty good at presenting opposite points of view. And what teenage kid doesn't go through the time when nothing their parents think, do or believe is right?

The trouble with this is that Mormonism, as a culture, tends to be very clannish. LDS typically hang out primarily with other LDS, and in the more extreme cases, hang out ONLY with other LDS.

[_guy sajer]

"Mind control" might be easier to sustain as a claim against the Church if it wasn't for our immersion into the larger culture. We don't have LDS schools where students never come across any other viewpoint or idea. PUblic schools are pretty good at presenting opposite points of view. And what teenage kid doesn't go through the time when nothing their parents think, do or believe is right?

Agreed. However, the Mormon Church does use a variety of indoctrination techniques to try to blunt the effects of larger culture on the thinking, attitudes, values, etc. of the member.

I think you will find that many who have left or who are questioning Mormonism have had to overcome a variety of emotional, psychological, intellectual, etc. obstacles implanted through years of Mormon indoctrination.

I was one of them. It was not until I was nearly 40 (and with a Ph.D. even) that I was able to overcome the guilt and inadequacy I felt because of my inability to swallow the whole kid and kaboodle. This was in part my doing, but also in part the result of, literally, decades of indoctrination and conditioning.

[_jskains]

Is what you find amusing my lack of critical thinking that you find amusing?

Always pointing at the catsup on the shirt of your opponent when you have nothing really bright to say.

You used to complain about Scientology on ZLMB. I will admit though in this case you're exhibiting more of a knee-jerk reaction, "look! They are worse that we are" than deeply bigoted. this, unlike your attack on homosexuality which is entirely bigoted and nothing more.

Of the hundreds of posts, I mentioned it what... Once or twice? And as for the homosexual thread, your not the brightest one, so I assume you can't disassociate emotional response from intellectial inquiry. It is always easier to namecall than actually have a valid counter-response. "Oh look, you said something I don't agree with.. BIGOT BIGOT!" It's a childish response, but I don't expect much better out of you.

I've read them, and they are standard bigotry. Nothing more. You don't offer a shred of insight. One of the clear signs of bigotry is the unwillingness to educate yourself on a controversial issue. Basically, you think up something you don't like, homosexuality for instance, and then without any research on the subject or the necessary context for discussing it rattle off every idle thought that comes to your mind. Uneducated white southerners have been known to do the same when discussing the merits or failings of black folk. It's not always just pure mean-spiritedness. Some of them may in fact seriously contemplate the matter within their own minds. Yet they are bigots. Standard ones.

One of the clear signs of stupidly is generalized statements. Your as pathetic as an attorney that walks up to the jury and says "anything this guy says is uneducated and stupid" then sits down.. You obviously can make yourself SOUND big, but in the end your really just a lot of hot air.

Josh, those two sentences don't actually make any sense when put together. There was an art, and I apparently had it then lost it? What's that suppose to mean?

I know it must be taxing for your small brain... "A lost art" is obviously meaningless and something I made up.

JMS

[_Trinity]

"Mind control" might be easier to sustain as a claim against the Church if it wasn't for our immersion into the larger culture. We don't have LDS schools where students never come across any other viewpoint or idea. PUblic schools are pretty good at presenting opposite points of view. And what teenage kid doesn't go through the time when nothing their parents think, do or believe is right?

Agreed. However, the Mormon Church does use a variety of indoctrination techniques to try to blunt the effects of larger culture on the thinking, attitudes, values, etc. of the member.

The church has not always had a goal of being mainstream. For a very long time, it was a source of pride to separate themselves from the rest of evil Babylon, an us vs them mentality that helped buoy them up and away from the rest of the population. So to some extent, the mind control was already built in, where the lines were drawn and any opposing viewpoint was on the outside and readily rejected by the Mormon populace. They just needed to be identified and tagged. us=good, them=bad.

To their credit, the church has come a ways from that, and is more inclined to acknowledge the validity of like-minded ideas regardless of their origin.

[_jskains]

The trouble with this is that Mormonism, as a culture, tends to be very clannish. LDS typically hang out primarily with other LDS, and in the more extreme cases, hang out ONLY with other LDS.

Are you seriously trying to pin this down as a Mormon thing? You have got to be kidding me. And the "Socialites" in High school or the jocks or the nerds or any other grouping of like-minded people NEVER EVER find themselves "clannish".

Good luck in Candyland there "Scratch and Sniff".

JMS

[_karl61]

Is what you find amusing my lack of critical thinking that you find amusing?

Always pointing at the catsup on the shirt of your opponent when you have nothing really bright to say.

You used to complain about Scientology on ZLMB. I will admit though in this case you're exhibiting more of a knee-jerk reaction, "look! They are worse that we are" than deeply bigoted. this, unlike your attack on homosexuality which is entirely bigoted and nothing more.

Of the hundreds of posts, I mentioned it what... Once or twice? And as for the homosexual thread, your not the brightest one, so I assume you can't disassociate emotional response from intellectial inquiry. It is always easier to namecall than actually have a valid counter-response. "Oh look, you said something I don't agree with.. BIGOT BIGOT!" It's a childish response, but I don't expect much better out of you.

I've read them, and they are standard bigotry. Nothing more. You don't offer a shred of insight. One of the clear signs of bigotry is the unwillingness to educate yourself on a controversial issue. Basically, you think up something you don't like, homosexuality for instance, and then without any research on the subject or the necessary context for discussing it rattle off every idle thought that comes to your mind. Uneducated white southerners have been known to do the same when discussing the merits or failings of black folk. It's not always just pure mean-spiritedness. Some of them may in fact seriously contemplate the matter within their own minds. Yet they are bigots. Standard ones.

One of the clear signs of stupidly is generalized statements. Your as pathetic as an attorney that walks up to the jury and says "anything this guy says is uneducated and stupid" then sits down.. You obviously can make yourself SOUND big, but in the end your really just a lot of hot air.

Josh, those two sentences don't actually make any sense when put together. There was an art, and I apparently had it then lost it? What's that suppose to mean?

I know it must be taxing for your small brain... "A lost art" is obviously meaningless and something I made up.

JMS

interesting sprinkle of satanism