FAIR: A Prophet Doesn't Speak For God

[_Gadianton]

The no-think bots amuse me. On the one hand, they get to believe what they want. If the prophet says jump, no, they'll take the matter up at their own convenience in prayer and maybe the Holy Ghost will say yes, and maybe he'll say no. But on the other, investigators and critics have to believe whatever the NTB says. If an investigator or worse, a critic, reads the Book of Mormon, "no" is not an option. If they get a "no", then they must have done something wrong and need to go back and try again.

So what it comes down to in our little universe is the only infallible one is the NTB, who is never wrong while both the ones who disagree and even his prophet error.

[_The Dude]

The reason we pray for confirmation is that then we KNOW and not just think that the words are from God. A person can sometimes be talked out of a position they only think maybe is right. When you KNOW then you can't be deceived or deluded away from the truth.

Unless you only think you KNOW the truth. Then your confirmation is itself a declusion. That's possible, isn't it?

[_beastie]

The no-think bots amuse me. On the one hand, they get to believe what they want. If the prophet says jump, no, they'll take the matter up at their own convenience in prayer and maybe the Holy Ghost will say yes, and maybe he'll say no. But on the other, investigators and critics have to believe whatever the NTB says. If an investigator or worse, a critic, reads the Book of Mormon, "no" is not an option. If they get a "no", then they must have done something wrong and need to go back and try again.

So what it comes down to in our little universe is the only infallible one is the NTB, who is never wrong while both the ones who disagree and even his prophet error.

YES! This is why I refer to it as hubris - the hubris of the believing apologist (to differentiate between the run-of-the-mill believer, who normally isn't even aware of these issues). It is striking! Even a PROPHET OF GOD, who undoubtedly prayed for inspiration before addressing the body of the church as the prophet of God can get it wrong, and simply be sharing his own, culturally influenced, opinions.

But when the believing apologist, (who has just asserted that even a prophet of God can get it wrong) prays and gets inspiration, well, then there is NO DOUBT they're right.

Perhaps, in the end, that is the trait that differentiates those who continue to believe despite knowing all the "skeletons" and those who lose faith after discovering the skeletons. It's not that we never really believed, or never received "real" testimonies - it's that we were able to admit that even we might be wrong about our most strongly held religious beliefs, even those based on "revelation". And the believing apologists just are not capable of even seeing that as a serious possibility.

Hey, I look at it this way. If the person GOD CHOSE for a spokesman, who supposedly converses with God in some way in how to direct "his" church, can get up in front of the congregation, share ideas that are NOT god-inspired even though the prophet is absolutely CONVINCED they are god-inspired (see BY for many examples of this), then it's certainly possible for ME to have been wrong about what I also believed to be God-inspired.

But not for the apologists. No way. They're not wrong. Other people - including, I guess the prophets - just have not experienced what THEY have experienced.

[_Infymus]

Of course, is a member prays and receives CONTRADICTORY information than the prophet, we all know who's wrong. They must not have prayed right, or maybe weren't worthy.

So the bit about praying for confirmation is nothing but frill.

The reason we pray for confirmation is that then we KNOW and not just think that the words are from God. A person can sometimes be talked out of a position they only think maybe is right. When you KNOW then you can't be deceived or deluded away from the truth.

Oh, yes, and just to clarify something. The Holy Ghost does not give CONTRADICTORY information. The Holy Ghost confirms or does not confirm. Beastie, I am sure you taught "the stupor of thought" concept.

And you miss the entire point, Charity. If a Prophet says "multiple earrings are wrong", and a member doesn't get that special sensation under their nipples, well, it is the member's fault.

The Cult will never be at fault.

Your philosophy is as off base as your anatomy.

So personally attack me, why? And I would spank you so hard with my anatomy.

[_charity]

Unless you only think you KNOW the truth. Then your confirmation is itself a declusion. That's possible, isn't it?

I had a philosophy teacher who said it was also possible that we were only watching the shadows on the back of the cave instead of reality. I suppose all things are possible to them that don't believe.

[_beastie]

I had a philosophy teacher who said it was also possible that we were only watching the shadows on the back of the cave instead of reality. I suppose all things are possible to them that don't believe.

:::having a scooby-doo moment - HUNH??::::

by the way, Charity, you already admitted to me, on a different thread, that it is possible for a believer to be absolutely convinced God communicated certain information to that person, and for that person to be wrong. Hence, it is equally possible for you, who absolutely is convinced God communicated with you, to also be wrong. Remember?

On that thread, I asked:

Maybe this simple question will help.

Is it possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong?

And Charity responded:

To answer this question, yes, it is possible for a human being to be completely, utterly, 100% convinced that God told him/her something - and be wrong.

But you have to ask what the source of the conviction is. People can convince themselves of all kinds of things. Some people convince themselves that God has sent them a message through some natural circumstance. "I found a $10 bill, and that was God's way of telling me that I should. . . " Some people's conviction is based only on what others tell them. "Pastor Bill told me God wanted me to give my trust fund to build the church up." They can be convinced without any spiritual experience of their own. They are absolutely convinced without any spiritual experience.

I bolded the significant part - the next paragraph is just a continued attempt to assert that, while it's possible for human beings to be wrong when they are completely convinced God told them something - that could not possible in her case. Cuz, you know, she's got the spiritual experience that other people don't have. So my response to was share instances in which people WERE basing their absolute conviction on spiritual experiences, including polygamist Anne, who even uses the same terminology and conception that LDS do.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... &start=126

[_sunstoned]

Of course, is a member prays and receives CONTRADICTORY information than the prophet, we all know who's wrong. They must not have prayed right, or maybe weren't worthy.

So the bit about praying for confirmation is nothing but frill.

The reason we pray for confirmation is that then we KNOW and not just think that the words are from God. A person can sometimes be talked out of a position they only think maybe is right. When you KNOW then you can't be deceived or deluded away from the truth.

Oh, yes, and just to clarify something. The Holy Ghost does not give CONTRADICTORY information. The Holy Ghost confirms or does not confirm. Beastie, I am sure you taught "the stupor of thought" concept.

Charity,

I have a couple of questions for you.

What would have happened if a member living in St. George in the 1870's who just attended the temple and got a dose of Adam God at the lecture at the veil who then prayed asking for conformation on this doctrine. What would the HG tell this person? That BY was preaching false doctrine? Because according to SWK a hundred years latter, he was.

Or how about a member living in 1976 praying to find out if the teachings of SWK on Native Americans turning white as they became more spiritual was correct? What would the HG tell this member? That SWK was screwed up?

Or how about JFS's teachings on Man, is origin and destiny? What if someone two decades ago would have payed about that? Would the HG tell this person that a prophet of God had got these types of foundational beliefs so totally wrong?

The fact is for 150 years the various prophets have contradicted themselves and each other over and over again. Anytime a long held teaching collides with the growing body of historical and scientific evidence, that teaching or doctrine is disregarded as "opinion" even though at one time it was stated as doctrine by a living prophet. Even Joseph Smith's teachings are not above being de-emphasized and written of as opinions. The King Follet discourse and who the Laminates were comes to mind.

[_charity]

I had a philosophy teacher who said it was also possible that we were only watching the shadows on the back of the cave instead of reality. I suppose all things are possible to them that don't believe.

:::having a scooby-doo moment - HUNH??::::

Ask Dr. Kreisman. But you will have to wait until you are on the other side. He passed away a long time ago.

by the way, Charity, you already admitted to me, on a different thread, that it is possible for a believer to be absolutely convinced God communicated certain information to that person, and for that person to be wrong. Hence, it is equally possible for you, who absolutely is convinced God communicated with you, to also be wrong. Remember?

I answer you the same I did then. You have to ask what is the source of the conviciton?

1. God appeared in vision, as to Joseph Smith.
2. God sent a witness of the Holy Ghost. As with many of us.
3. God sent some mortal person to give you a personal message. Oral Roberts and his "give me money or God will kill me" sermon.
4. Some pre-determined event will mean that God is telling you something. The finding the $10 bill.
5. The source of the "revelation" could be Satan.

A person in conditions #3, #4, and #5 could be 100% convinced. But that would not be the same as #1 and #2.

Of course, for people who have a different idea the person who says they are right is going to seem arrogant. But it isn't arrogance if you really are right. And I am not going to say that I think I am wrong just to please any of you. We aren't talking about appetizer spread recipes. If I were to say, "I make the best Philadelphia cheese spread" that would be hubris. I could be wrong because that is a matter of opinion only. A person who doesn't like olives and green onions mixed in with Phily cheese wouldn't like mine.

But, while I have not had a vision, I can still put myself in the position of Joseph Smith when he quoted Paul. "I knew I had seen a vision, and I knew God knew I knew it. And I could not deny it." I have had a spiritual witness of the truthfulness of the Gospel. God knows I have, and I can't deny it. That's why I won't admit to you that maybe, just maybe, I could be wrong.

[_Mercury]

Of course, is a member prays and receives CONTRADICTORY information than the prophet, we all know who's wrong. They must not have prayed right, or maybe weren't worthy.

So the bit about praying for confirmation is nothing but frill.

The reason we pray for confirmation is that then we KNOW and not just think that the words are from God. A person can sometimes be talked out of a position they only think maybe is right. When you KNOW then you can't be deceived or deluded away from the truth.

Oh, yes, and just to clarify something. The Holy Ghost does not give CONTRADICTORY information. The Holy Ghost confirms or does not confirm. Beastie, I am sure you taught "the stupor of thought" concept.

What is the purpose of prayer if there will be no change in the supposed fact after one prays? God sure is poor on the whole process-driven approach. Sounds like Elohim needs to get an MBA.

[_charity]

What is the purpose of prayer if there will be no change in the supposed fact after one prays? God sure is poor on the whole process-driven approach. Sounds like Elohim needs to get an MBA.

Prayers and confirmations aren't about facts. They are about faith.

If you think the universe would be in better hands with a Ken Lay you have a weird idea about eternity!