Working your way to the CK

[_The Nehor]

I liken the grace of God to food pouring down. Choosing to use it (keeping commandments etc.) is just making sure my bowl is right side up to catch it. I produced none of the food and deserve none of it. I just wanted it and planned how to get it.

Sorry, Nehor, that analogy doesn't work very well with me. Even the dufus who puts his bowl upside down is going to still get food. It may be scattered and a little difficult to consume, but he is nonetheless an equal recipient of the food.

Or are you saying if you don't get the bowl right, the dogs'll eat your grace?

;)

You do still get food just not as much and it's a lot messier (Terrestrial & Telestial). The only ones who get no food are those who refuse to eat it at any cost (OD).

[_Abinadi's Fire]

You should really check out what Arminius, Molina, Episcopius and others have to say about it before defining all Christians as ascribing to TULIP.

[_guy sajer]

The whole notion that one's ETERNAL situation will be determined by a few short years on each--given the lack of understanding, personal weaknesses, culture, cultural values and mores, environment, up-bringing, inherited traits, etc.--is incredibly unreasonable.

There is just too much we don't know, too much we don't understand, too much beyond our control, too much influence of environment, culture, expectatioons, etc., too much personal weakness, and so forth.

So, for the next 1,000,000 years, my entire existence will be determined by what I did during 18-80 years of life in a sitution in which I operated under incredibly strong and diverse forces working on me at all times and with no clear signal what I should be doing?

How is that in the remotest sense fair?

[_The Nehor]

The whole notion that one's ETERNAL situation will be determined by a few short years on each--given the lack of understanding, personal weaknesses, culture, cultural values and mores, environment, up-bringing, inherited traits, etc.--is incredibly unreasonable.

There is just too much we don't know, too much we don't understand, too much beyond our control, too much influence of environment, culture, expectatioons, etc., too much personal weakness, and so forth.

So, for the next 1,000,000 years, my entire existence will be determined by what I did during 18-80 years of life in a sitution in which I operated under incredibly strong and diverse forces working on me at all times and with no clear signal what I should be doing?

How is that in the remotest sense fair?

No idea but it is the reality.

[_Runtu]

You might want to check out James 2.

That has to do with faith, not grace.

And then there is 2 Ne. 25: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

And what is "all we can do"? It's pretty much nothing. You might brush up on King Benjamin's speech.

So in your scheme, Jesus choses us (for reasons of His own) to receive His grace. Then we do good works, not of our own will, but because of this grace. So the wicked aren't accountable because they could have done good if only Jesus had chosen them?

What are you talking about? I have no scheme (and I'm no Calvinist). I am simply providing you with accurate LDS doctrine, which you seem painfully unaware of. Grace is "an enabling power" that allows us to do the works. In other words, accepting God's grace (which is not limited to some chosen few) by covenant allows us to do the good works that will bless us and others.

Your ability to read things into my words is simply breathtaking.

[_Trinity]

The whole notion that one's ETERNAL situation will be determined by a few short years on each--given the lack of understanding, personal weaknesses, culture, cultural values and mores, environment, up-bringing, inherited traits, etc.--is incredibly unreasonable.

There is just too much we don't know, too much we don't understand, too much beyond our control, too much influence of environment, culture, expectatioons, etc., too much personal weakness, and so forth.

So, for the next 1,000,000 years, my entire existence will be determined by what I did during 18-80 years of life in a sitution in which I operated under incredibly strong and diverse forces working on me at all times and with no clear signal what I should be doing?

How is that in the remotest sense fair?

No idea but it is the reality.

Reality according to whom? You? Might I remind you you just served grace up for dinner? (and without a spoon, no less)

[_skippy the dead]

The whole notion that one's ETERNAL situation will be determined by a few short years on each--given the lack of understanding, personal weaknesses, culture, cultural values and mores, environment, up-bringing, inherited traits, etc.--is incredibly unreasonable.

There is just too much we don't know, too much we don't understand, too much beyond our control, too much influence of environment, culture, expectatioons, etc., too much personal weakness, and so forth.

So, for the next 1,000,000 years, my entire existence will be determined by what I did during 18-80 years of life in a sitution in which I operated under incredibly strong and diverse forces working on me at all times and with no clear signal what I should be doing?

How is that in the remotest sense fair?

And don't forget that God apparently already knows what you will do during your time on Earth before you get here, so it's really an exercise in futility anyway. So you may as well enjoy it while you can.

[_The Nehor]

Reality according to whom? You? Might I remind you you just served grace up for dinner? (and without a spoon, no less)

It's the reality I accept and am sure is correct.

[_The Nehor]

And don't forget that God apparently already knows what you will do during your time on Earth before you get here, so it's really an exercise in futility anyway. So you may as well enjoy it while you can.

God does it for the same reason we send people we know will one day be great surgeons to medical school before giving them a scalpel.

[_skippy the dead]

And don't forget that God apparently already knows what you will do during your time on Earth before you get here, so it's really an exercise in futility anyway. So you may as well enjoy it while you can.

God does it for the same reason we send people we know will one day be great surgeons to medical school before giving them a scalpel.

Super bad analogy, for so many reasons.